Point Buy vs Character Level

[LeapingShark]

I'm trying to figure out a fair balance between point buy points and level. For example, let's say we have a 3rd level character with 28 point buy abilities. To make a 2nd level character of equivalent power, what would you assign for the number of point buy points? A 4th level character would have less points than a 3rd, how many point buy points would be fairly balanced against 28? Fill out chart and give reasons if you can:

CL 1 = ?
CL 2 = ?
CL 3 = 28 points
CL 4 = ?
CL 5 = ?
CL 6 = ?

 

[Bront]

I'm trying to figure out a fair balance between point buy points and level. For example, let's say we have a 3rd level character with 28 point buy abilities. To make a 2nd level character of equivalent power, what would you assign for the number of point buy points? A 4th level character would have less points than a 3rd, how many point buy points would be fairly balanced against 28? Fill out chart and give reasons if you can:

CL 1 = ?
CL 2 = ?
CL 3 = 28 points
CL 4 = ?
CL 5 = ?
CL 6 = ?

I've seen one variety have 8 per level, and had a chart from L1 to L30 for points. Check for it here

It's hard to say. Realy depends. Personaly, I actualy prefer all stats being 1 to 1 ration per point, but I could see a 4-6 point varaint per level being fairly balanced given that scope. 8 might work, thouhg that means that CL 6 will be 2 points, which isn't good.

 

[Reese]

IMO a 4 point variation per level seems balanced. I wouldn't allow an 8 point variation in my games.

 

[Crothian]

There isn't one. Point buy means different things to differnent character. LEvels are really good and the higher one gets in them the less the attributes matter.

 

[Cheiromancer]

It's really hard for a 1st level character to be balanced against a 3rd level character. Even if the 1st level has all 18s. (i.e. a 96 point buy). Hit points will just be too low. A fighter with 18 Con will have 14 hit points. A 3rd level fighter with 14 Con will have double that (27 hp on average). Even making a 2nd level character balanced against a 3rd level character is hard. The 3rd level feat all by itself is a significant difference.

Equally, a 6th level character would have to have pretty pathetic stats to be balanced against a 3rd level character. You need stats of 13+ to get many key feats, and to cast decent spells, and a character with a point buy of 2 won't be able to manage that. Such characters are unlikely to be fun to play. A low-stat warlock is pretty effective, though.

But if I had to take a stab at it...

First, I'd extend the point buy table:

6 gives -2 points
7 gives -1 points
...
8 to 18 have standard costs
...
19 costs 20 points
20 costs 24 points
21 costs 29 points
22 costs 34 points
23 costs 40 points
24 costs 46 points

Then (using a funky quadratic progression) I'd assign these point values:

CL 1 = 112 points
CL 2 = 50 points
CL 3 = 28 points
CL 4 = 18 points
CL 5 = 12 points
CL 6 = 9 points

A low level monk or paladin might have strong enough abilities to hold his own against a standard 3rd level character. A 6th level character with a few dump stats can have at least have one or two decent (13+) scores, and class abilities would let him match the third level character.

If the characters are going to be leveling up, all these numbers get wonky. At the very least there has to LA adjustments, but even those aren't good enough. The 1st level godling has to have an LA that increases as he goes up levels (starting from +2), while the useless 6th level character has to have a negative LA that gets worse over time. (A 6th level rogue with a 9 point buy might be equal to a 3rd level character, but a 12th level rogue with a 9 point buy is not as good as a 9th level character).

If you find some numbers that are borne up by playtesting, do let us know.

 

[Thanee]

Well, don't forget, that by the time a 3rd level char reaches 4th level, the 1st level char has reached 3rd already.

Bye
Thanee

 

[LeapingShark]

Yes Cheiromancer, those point numbers look about right.

I suspected that in most cases being "higher lvl" will always be more advantageous than having good stats, so the change in point buy numbers really has to be drastic (just like Cheiro's sample).

The real catch is what Thanee pointed out and Cheiro alluded to; as the campaign moves forward and experience is gained, the lower level characters acquire levels at a faster rate than the higher level characters. And as they get closer and closer in lvl, the higher ability score characters start to take the advantage.

So coming up with a fair scale is quite a challenge, if not impossible.

For me it seems to be a choice between immediate power (higher level) or delayed power (higher points). But the real litmus test is presenting a chart to some players, and seeing what they choose (and playtesting too, but the choices at the outset would probably be foretelling if the players were told to min/max their characters). A 1st lvl char with godlike stats would be fun and overpowering in the long run, but a higher level wizard would probably dominate the battlefield at the outset.

 

[Cheiromancer]

Yeah, it would work as a one-shot. But as soon as characters advance, things will get rapidly unbalanced. Even if you make the 1st level character earn 3000 xp (as if he were a 3rd level character) he will still get too powerful too fast.

And even if the 6th level character only needs 3000 xp to advance to 7th level, he won't be advancing fast enough.

 

[LeapingShark]

Let's say, same thing but on a smaller scale:

CL 1 = ?
CL 2 = 28 points
CL 3 = ?

Is there any combination of pts that would be (relatively, as much as is feasible) fair?

I'm inclined to say that the point buy points should be really close, since the level becomes a near-wash after +10000XP, and it is already close almost immediately. The #1 character will catch up to 2nd lvl after +1000XP. After +3000XP, the #3 becomes 4th lvl, the #2 is well into 3rd lvl, and the #1 graduates to 3rd, so they are already very close. At +6000XP they are all even at 4th, before the #3 char takes a brief lead at 5th lvl.

The advantage to starting ahead at 3rd lvl is big, but the power is temporary! The point buy points allowed for the 1st level character should be enough to make it an attractive option, but not enough to wreck the balance at high levels.