Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is LIVE! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7211835" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>That is 100% incorrect as I pointed out. The fact that you choose to use one of the systems that doesn't allow you to have a 16+ does not alter the meaning of a 16+. In the game, 18 is the pinnacle of normal human capability, not superhuman. That starts at 19. That hasn't changed since the game was first published.</p><p></p><p>I have no idea what type of curve is created by the relationship of the stats as a whole (rolled or otherwise). However, when referring to a bell curve, we're talking about the probability of a given number when you roll the dice. 3d6 produces a bell curve. In the standard array, I don't think there is any curve. The number is what it is. In point buy, it would be linear. You have several options, and each number has an equal chance. Once you've chosen the first ability, the next ability has a narrower range of numbers available, but the possibility of any of those numbers being selected is still equal, it's still a linear progression. The <em>cost</em> is different for higher numbers, but that doesn't alter the fact that any of the numbers within the range are equally possible. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But no, it's not a tiny fraction of the game world. RAW, it's achievable by every single person in the world within a matter of days. If two 18s is unacceptable for a 1st level person at age 20, then it should be unacceptable for an 8th level person at age 20 and 15 days. The speed at which people can gain ASIs is very, very fast in 5e in relation to the game world. I certainly think that it's much more believable to have two 18s by 1st level that has been developed over 20 years of life (or more in the case of non-humans), than it is to go from 16 to 20 in less than a month. As you said, we're talking D&D, and them's the rules.</p><p></p><p>When discussing the "realism" of multiple people having multiple high scores, it's a question of whether each character created can achieve it. The 8th level limit applies equally across the board, regardless of the method of generation. By standard array, every single character starts with a 15 and a 14, and they gain at least a +1 for two stats due to racial bonuses. Thus, it's possible (even likely) for every single standard array character to have two 18s by 8th level, as early as 6th for a non-human fighter.</p><p></p><p>With dice rolling, it's possible (and even probable) that some will not. </p><p></p><p>To put it a different way, there is a percentage of rolled characters (20%? Somebody better at math will have to figure that out) that will not have a 14 and a 15 (or higher) as their two highest scores. Some will have no scores above 14, some will have no scores above 13. This is the result of the bell curve. It is impossible for a character with no score over 13 to have the same result as the standard array, they can't gain two scores of 18 by their third ASI.</p><p></p><p>With point buy, that's theoretically the same, but when have you not seen a point buy that people selected the maximum allowable for their two most important stats. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, you didn't, and I wasn't implying you did. Just joking around, as I (and others) have the tendency to get a little too serious sometimes...It's not directed to you, or really anybody, just an acknowledgement that we have different priorities.</p><p></p><p>However, being "realistic" is a number of different things. To somebody like me, it's not having full control of the stats you were born with. That something like GURPS took a different direction means literally nothing in that regard. The process itself, which I have pointed out, is irrelevant. It's the probabilities/results that the process produces that would matter if, in fact, you were trying to be more "realistic."</p><p></p><p>Having said that, I do think that to produce "realistic" results, it would require random determination of some sort, and an ability to be outside the statistical norm. Everybody in the entire world having the same base number is most definitely not realistic. But "realism" isn't my core goal. I laid out our goals pretty thoroughly, and while one of those goals is to set in-world baselines and help with consistency (which is different from everybody having the same base number, and cannot be reached via a standard array), we developed a system to meet those goals. While this does bear a relationship to "realism" it's not the same.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7211835, member: 6778044"] That is 100% incorrect as I pointed out. The fact that you choose to use one of the systems that doesn't allow you to have a 16+ does not alter the meaning of a 16+. In the game, 18 is the pinnacle of normal human capability, not superhuman. That starts at 19. That hasn't changed since the game was first published. I have no idea what type of curve is created by the relationship of the stats as a whole (rolled or otherwise). However, when referring to a bell curve, we're talking about the probability of a given number when you roll the dice. 3d6 produces a bell curve. In the standard array, I don't think there is any curve. The number is what it is. In point buy, it would be linear. You have several options, and each number has an equal chance. Once you've chosen the first ability, the next ability has a narrower range of numbers available, but the possibility of any of those numbers being selected is still equal, it's still a linear progression. The [I]cost[/I] is different for higher numbers, but that doesn't alter the fact that any of the numbers within the range are equally possible. But no, it's not a tiny fraction of the game world. RAW, it's achievable by every single person in the world within a matter of days. If two 18s is unacceptable for a 1st level person at age 20, then it should be unacceptable for an 8th level person at age 20 and 15 days. The speed at which people can gain ASIs is very, very fast in 5e in relation to the game world. I certainly think that it's much more believable to have two 18s by 1st level that has been developed over 20 years of life (or more in the case of non-humans), than it is to go from 16 to 20 in less than a month. As you said, we're talking D&D, and them's the rules. When discussing the "realism" of multiple people having multiple high scores, it's a question of whether each character created can achieve it. The 8th level limit applies equally across the board, regardless of the method of generation. By standard array, every single character starts with a 15 and a 14, and they gain at least a +1 for two stats due to racial bonuses. Thus, it's possible (even likely) for every single standard array character to have two 18s by 8th level, as early as 6th for a non-human fighter. With dice rolling, it's possible (and even probable) that some will not. To put it a different way, there is a percentage of rolled characters (20%? Somebody better at math will have to figure that out) that will not have a 14 and a 15 (or higher) as their two highest scores. Some will have no scores above 14, some will have no scores above 13. This is the result of the bell curve. It is impossible for a character with no score over 13 to have the same result as the standard array, they can't gain two scores of 18 by their third ASI. With point buy, that's theoretically the same, but when have you not seen a point buy that people selected the maximum allowable for their two most important stats. No, you didn't, and I wasn't implying you did. Just joking around, as I (and others) have the tendency to get a little too serious sometimes...It's not directed to you, or really anybody, just an acknowledgement that we have different priorities. However, being "realistic" is a number of different things. To somebody like me, it's not having full control of the stats you were born with. That something like GURPS took a different direction means literally nothing in that regard. The process itself, which I have pointed out, is irrelevant. It's the probabilities/results that the process produces that would matter if, in fact, you were trying to be more "realistic." Having said that, I do think that to produce "realistic" results, it would require random determination of some sort, and an ability to be outside the statistical norm. Everybody in the entire world having the same base number is most definitely not realistic. But "realism" isn't my core goal. I laid out our goals pretty thoroughly, and while one of those goals is to set in-world baselines and help with consistency (which is different from everybody having the same base number, and cannot be reached via a standard array), we developed a system to meet those goals. While this does bear a relationship to "realism" it's not the same. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Point Buy vs Rolling for Stats
Top