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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7238266" data-attributes="member: 996">Not if the point was to get through the door quietly, they didn't.  Or get into the chest without breaking the potion bottles or whatever that might be inside.  And lockpicking is just one example, there's the other thief 'special' abilities that 1e locked into class in a paroxysm of niche protection.  Then there's effing spells.  Claiming that class didn't matter in 1e compared to stats is sheer overwhelming nonsense, Maxperson, it's so far from right, it's not even wrong.  Compound that by pretending stats are unimportant important compared to class in 5e, when BA makes stat bonuses very important even at high level, and every check can be made with or without proficiency, and, really, you're not even trying to make a point, you're just pushing back blindly with no thought whatsoever, from some sheer, perverse, irresistible compulsion to contradict.  So the expectation that the fighter's STR is going to be over-written by a magic item is somehow evidence that the stats he rolled matter?  And, y'know, the gauntlets were a CFT item... Yeah, the Thief was a terrible class, no argument.  No doubt one reason it had such draconian niche protection.   You each seem to be addressing only part of the rules with your quotes.  Really, though, the exact quotes barely matter, it's all in the context of D&D as a whole - 40 years of history don't disappear because you leave a detail or turn of phrase out of the latest ed.You want to change something, you need to change it quite explicitly.  No, not by coming out and saying "sub-system X has been deprecated," like it's a programming manual, but by clearly stating the new rule or assumption that's replaced the old.   Merely not addressing past assumptions, while presenting things consistent with them, leaves those assumptions available to those who've been assuming them the whole time.  Which was a politic thing to do, given 5e's goals....</blockquote>

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