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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 7192811" data-attributes="member: 5100">I wouldn't say I hate Clerics. It just seems like it's built as a combination of homage to an archetype that no longer fits with the other default game assumptions and to fill a certain mechanical role. One of the biggest turn-offs, to me, in 4E was that the four roles were made explicit. I would walk from a table where the first concern was in filling those roles. That's just alien, to me. Yes, there's almost a guarantee of combat, you'll want to figure out how to handle injury, and magic clearly exists. That doesn't mean you need to check off specific boxes.Cleric should not be synonymous with "healer". Yeah, sure, the Life Cleric is, obviously, going to be a fantastic healer. Otherwise, I'd be totally cool with a War Cleric that made the Ranger look like a healbot, but left the Paladin in the dust (fear the war god). Tempest probably should look like a blend of Evoker and Conjurer. Protection should have abilities that say, "If I need to use a healing spell, I didn't actually do my job."The defining feature of the Cleric should be "adventuring servant of a god". I'm opposed to anything that makes the vanilla Cleric a warrior medic and in favor of anything that makes it clear that the first order of business is actually doing his god's bidding -- and doing so in bright, flavorful ways that make it clear that each god is different and their interests are different. The Cleric should probably have greater differentiation than any other class (other than, maybe, Sorcerer). There should be absolutely no way to mistake Clerics of Wee Jas and Heironeous (Raven Queen and Torm, for those outside of Greyhawk).Also, I'm explicitly not advocating that they be neutered. I'm saying that the domain should provide more than the base class. What do all Clerics have in common? Well, enough combat training to be confident of adventuring, so simple weapon proficiency. Basic (i.e. light) proficiency in wearing armor doesn't seem out of place and shields aren't complex, either. They aren't cloistered, but they aren't soldiers, either, so average (d8) hit dice. They're conduits of divine power, so full spell progression. They can directly channel the will of their god, but it probably manifests differently, so a "blank" Channel Divinity mechanic. I would expect them to be learned, as well.Looking at the base Cleric class, the changes would be: Remove medium armor proficiency. Remove Turn/Destroy Undead. Grant an additional skill pick. Maybe gimp the shared spell list a bit, in favor of more domain spells. Slightly nerfed, but not heinously.Now, how are they different? What do they get from their gods?Life: Best healing in the world (game). A way to be close enough to danger to actually heal those in need (I'm getting converted). Anathema to undead.- Implementation: Mostly the same. I'd probably still keep them at only medium armor, but that's more because I see heavy armor as being exceptional. Grant Turn Undead. Increase number of domain spells to 4-5 flavorful spells per spell level. I'm not so sure about Divine Strike -- I'd rather see them not have damage increases -- but radiant energy does seem like something that could be at their disposal. I might replace it with a once-per-turn ranged healing effect for the same amount of HP, just to enforce theme. - Net effect: Minimal change other than loss of heavy armor, a more tailored spell list, and exchange damage for healing.Tempest: Access to the elements. Somewhat unstable/unpredictable. Dangerous to mess with. Ready to move in difficult environments.- Implementation: Martial weapons. No additional armor. Stormtouched: At 1st level, when you are hit with a melee attack, you may use your reaction to create an arc of lightning to your attacker (works as shocking grasp but does not require actual casting or VSM). Rebuke elemental: At 2nd level, you can exert dominance over elemental creatures, using the same mechanics as turn undead. At 5th level, this allows you to banish elementals in the same way a Life Cleric would destroy undead. Storm shield: At 11th level, you can use your Channel Divinity to create an aura of lightning that functions as fire shield except that it does lightning damage and protects from lightning. Increase number of domain spells to 4-5, as with Life.- Net effect: Less tanky, but heavy incentive to not attack them. More granted abilities.OK. I get the logic. In practice, what I've seen is the armor is more to engage than defend.Yeah. I'm really starting to think the biggest issue is the spell list. It's fine for Tempest Clerics to be nukes, but Life shouldn't be. There needs to be more differentiation, so that the different domains can really excel at what makes sense -- and suck at what makes sense.</blockquote>

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