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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4824626" data-attributes="member: 40961">I selected "needed at heroic tier," even though I'm not comfortable with the word "needed."  "Needed" is very subjective, particularly at the point where its just a +1 to hit.  Once its a +3 to hit, though, I just get frustrated listening to people try to tell me it isn't necessary.  If you're hitting about half the time, an additional +3 to hit is a 30% increase in your round by round damage.  That's not optional, or at least if everyone in the group has it except you, you will be able to visibly see the results at the game table. I hate the feat for two reasons. First, I hate that I spend so many of my feats these days on boring stuff.  This happened in 3e as well, and I hoped it wouldn't happen in 4e, but it did.  Until paragon tier your feat choices for certain classes can be pretty locked up.  Our group's Avenger, for example, is spending his feats as follows (though not in this order):  Toughness, Weapon Expertise, Weapon Focus, Leather Armor Proficiency, Armor of Faith, Superior Weapon Proficiency.  Rogues are in a similar position, as are Rangers.  In our group, without my prompting, it has become a matter of rote procedure to take Expertise and Toughness at the very least.   I think this makes the game less fun.  I feel like I'll get a lot more enjoyment out of a feat like Long Jumper or Skill Training: Stealth than I do out of Expertise.  But I understand math and understand to hit bonuses and know that if I do not take it then behind the scenes my lower to hit bonus will be reducing the fun I get from my character. The second reason I hate Expertise is because it widens the gap between experienced and inexperienced players.  There's already a gap, and a certain amount of gap is inevitable, but this is a situation where the gap can be clearly identified.  To give you an example from my game, we have a Warden and a Paladin.  Both players started the game completely new, and both created their own characters, but through different processes.  The Warden was created at level 1, and leveled up organically, meaning that decisions made at 4 and 5 were made with a degree of experience.  The Paladin was created at level 5 by a new player joining the game.  The Warden, as a result, Greatspear (+3 proficiency superior weapon) while the Paladin has a Glaive.  The Warden has Expertise while the Paladin does not.  And for the final nail in the coffin, the Warden has a +2 weapon while the Paladin, who chose her weapon because she felt it was cool, has a +1 weapon with a neat effect. This means that there's a difference of +3 between the two character's attack bonuses.  This was noticed in the very first game session with both characters, not through examination of the numbers, but through actual combat outcomes. I don't like that sort of thing.</blockquote>

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