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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shadow_Fox26" data-source="post: 3299479" data-attributes="member: 49267">This is a tricky thing to address. On one hand, you can argue powercreep because things are much stronger then the fighter. On the other hand, you can view it as a correction of the melee archetype and an admission that things werent done correctly to begin with.Looking over the maneuvers, I can see that the 4d6 fire maneuver you are referring to is Fire Riposte. That maneuver is used as an Immediate Action when someone successfully strikes you. You cannot use it on your turn as an attack. It can only be used when you are successfully hit. There goes his uber "I one shot you while raging and stacking two maneuvers, which I cant do anyway" trick.Also, the 2d6, ignores DR, maneuver is Foehammer, a Devoted Spirit maneuver. Swordsages cannot access that style unless they take the Martial Study feat.How on earth does he have 6 readied maneuvers per fight as a Swordsage 3/Barbarian 1?? Swordsages need to be at least level 5 to ready 6 maneuvers.The two maneuvers you are reffering to are Foehammer, which is a strike, and Fire Riposte, which is a counter. Neither of them are boosts.Rangers are meant to be brutal against their Favored Enemies and "ok" vs other creatures. They have traded general usefullness for specialized usefullness. Rangers are going to tear apart a Favored Enemy, especialy if dual wielding. By the way, Favored Enemy is a source of bonus damage for the core ranger.In addition, you are not comparing a ranger to a swordsage. You are comparing a ranger to a swordsage/barbarian with the extra rage feat who is incorrectly using his maneuvers.Ok. People should be working together more. This raging swordsage or the uber DR warlock should be backing his buddy up by staying near their nuking counterpart. If you leave a range based character to fight on his own, of course hes going to get pounded.No, my point is that you and your friends have made some pretty serious errors which has led to a false opinion that the Swordsage is incredibly broken. You have been saying that the swordsage class is overpowered because he is using a barbarian class feature and is stacking two maneuvers (which cant be done). How would a level 5 barbarian with power attack perform in his place? What about Clerics? Druids? Wizards? Sorcerers? A Barbarian with Tireless Rage? Ill even stipulate core only.12d6, DC 16 + Wis mod for half. 42 average fire damage on a failed save. 21 average fire damage on a successful save. Anything with evasion or fire resistance is going to hamper this ability (as anything in game has things that can counter it). This maneuver also requires you to enclose the ring of fire. What is the terrain like? How many enemies are there? Are they all spread out? Can you move fast enough to get them all in the ring?These are all modifiers on the effectiveness of this maneuver. If your DM always bunches the bad guys up in a tight little formation for you, and you are always fighting in wide open areas with no difficult terrain and against fire vulnerable foes, yeah, thats pretty potent.Wizards have access to Chain Lightning at level 12. (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm" target="_blank">http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chainLightning.htm</a>)1d6 damage/level (max 20d6). It can also jump to one extra target/level (max 20 targets)that are all within 30ft of the primary target. Thats 12d6 damage at level 12 that keeps increasing in power and doesnt require movement. Its much easier to create a devestating Chain Lightning.Circle of Death, also available at level 12 for Wizards: (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/circleOfDeath.htm" target="_blank">http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/circleOfDeath.htm</a>)The spell slays 1d4 HD worth of living creatures per caster level (maximum 20d4). Save or die for 12 HD worth of living creatures at level 12.Disintegrate, again, availble at level 12 for a Wizard: (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm" target="_blank">http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm</a>)You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Potent stuff. Useable as many times per encounter as you have spell slots/staves/scrolls. I wont cover what Clerics and Druids can do at level 12 as this post is already going to be long.Again, the tricky debate rears its head. Powercreep? Or an addendum on a mistake that was made in regards to class balance at the beginning of the edition? The ranger's spell list is grossly underpowered in a core only enviornment.So, what are you debating? A couple of once per encounter maneuvers (that you have been using incorrectly) or the barbarians rage? Again, this sounds to me like you are trying to use rage to justify the brokeness of the Swordsage. Not a sound argument.Also, it appears that you keep jumping back and forth between level 4 and level 5. What is the exact level spread of this group? If there is a difference in level between characters, this could also go a long way scewing power levels between individual characters, especially at low levels.At level 5, a ranger's FE spread is +4/+2. Lets give him a 16 STR and the Two Weapon Fighting combat style (dual short swords). On a full attack action, the ranger can deal 2d6+3+1+4+4 damage against his +4 FE. Thats 19 average damage. What is this swordsage doing at level 5? Useing barbarian rage (an ability not inherant to the swordsage!) and incorectly usuing his maneuvers.If the raging swordsage has a high STR score, power attack, and uses a two handed weapon, he is demonstrating the imbalance between two handed fighting and two weapon fighting. That comparison has nothing to do with the swordsage.So its the survey's way or the highway eh? If the "surveys" say so it must be right.So let me get this straight. Your argument is that a tricked out, all access Swordsage is more powerful than a character that is core only? That is the exact opposite of a sound argument! You have deliberately and ostentiously biased the debate in the swordsages favor! Thats preposterous.EDIT: Corrected a couple of mistakes.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />  That will teach me to debate at 4 AM!</blockquote>

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