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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Snarf Zagyg" data-source="post: 8356693" data-attributes="member: 7023840">So, on this, I will proffer the following suggestion-The next time you are about to use "strawman" (or any other informal fallacy) .... just ... don't. Don't use it. See what happens instead.Here's the thing- understanding logic, understanding rhetoric, it can help you understand argument and discussion. It helps when you are reading what other people are saying. But it doesn't help when you use it. In fact, it hurts.Let's use three classic examples- the strawman, ad hominem and circular reasoning (we will use 'begging the question' in the specifics):A: 5e should have more advanced martial options.B: Oh, so you want 5e to be exactly like 4e, eh? We all know what happened with 4e! Why do you want to kill D&D?I am using an extreme example here so the point isn't missed. You have two choices- either go "strawman" or don't. Here's the thing- what is the value-add of strawman? If you go down that route, it is most likely that you will end up arguing over what, exactly, is a strawman, whether it's a strawman or not, etc.You are arguing about arguing.On the other hand, you can just not use the term strawman at all. In which case, you have two choices:1. Disengage. If the person is truly intentionally misrepresenting you, then why discuss anything with them?2. Try to de-escalate. "Hey, I appreciate that feedback, but that wasn't my point. I was thinking about some advanced martial options within the framework of 5e- not a comment about 4e one way or the other. Do you have any thoughts on that? Thanks!"Same with ad hominem. If the person is directly insulting you, just tell them. "I don't appreciate that you insinuated that my mother plays bards. Moving back to Greyhawk ..."And it's the same with circular reasoning as well. "5e is the best ever edition, because they surveyed people about the best things to put into 5e, and then they only put the best things into 5e." I mean .... great! Putting only the best things ever into something tends to make it pretty pretty pretty good. So, cool? But instead of yelling at the poster that they are supporting a claim with a premise that is the claim, maybe just inquire what they are really doing? "I am a little confused about this thread- is this for fans of 5e to talk about how great it is?"I try to view discussion as fun; and arguing about arguing is never fun.IMO, etc.Note- edited because I forgot to include something. </blockquote>

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