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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6034892" data-attributes="member: 87792">OK.  Let's look at this in detail. 1e AD&D, the average joe was explicitely 0th level.  And fighters got one attack per level per round against them.  First level PCs were a big cut above them. 2e AD&D, the average joe was again explicitely 0th level. And their nearest comparison class got Weapon Specialisation.  First level PCs were an even bigger cut above them. Let's compare the threat level of the 3e and the 4e minions. In 3e the average joe was a first level <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/commoner.htm" target="_blank">commoner</a>.  There were no longer rules that made the PCs better able to deal with them, but commoners were proficient with one simple weapon (max damage 1d8 unless you took the heavy crossbow) and no armour (AC 10).  d4HP (rolled - NPC class), AC 10, d8 damage at best, AB +0.  Yeah, compared to first level PCs they are chumps, hitting on about a 16 with their only choice of weapon.  Even the party wizard is likely to be able to punk him without magic.  Against a first level fighter with AC 17 and 10 hp, it's going to take three hits to bring the fighter down with a d8 weapon on average.  Which is around 15 attacks - the commoners only hit 20% of the time.  Meanwhile the fighter is easily one-shotting them - he doesn't even need to roll.  And hits on a 5 or 6 aiming at AC 10 (Str 16-18). In 4e the average person is basically a non-combatant.  Not even a member of the militia.  The difference between someone who just about knows which end to hold a sword and someone with basic live combat training and who's lived through a fight or two is assumed to be vast - and this matches what I've seen.  4e PCs are assumed to not be rookies (remember the AD&D 1st level fighter was explicitely a veteran).  Against a 1st level fighter with AC 19, it's going to take about five hits for the minions to bring the fighter down (25 hp).  But the minions this time hit on a 13 - they have a 40% chance of hitting rather than a 20% chance.  So they need an average of 12.5 attacks rather than 15 to bring our fighter down.  Meanwhile we expect an AC of 15 from our first level minions with the fighter therefore needing about a 7 to hit (Str 18, Sword, +1 fighter bonus).  Again he one-shots the average guys, but slightly less frequently. Yes, this isn't a complete analysis.  But as I think I've shown the overall combat gap between the average guys and the first level fighter in 4e isn't that different from the gap in 3e.  (It is different if the fighter has a five minute rest between each punk but that's a whole different story.) The first level PC has never been an everyman in any edition of D&D there has ever been.  For one thing the first level wizard has always been able to command arcane forces and no everyman can do that. So I reject your assertion that there was an actual change.  The minion rules are just a recognition of the reality that there has been in every edition that the adventurers are skilled adventurers and are a huge cut above the average joe at what they do even at first level.</blockquote>

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