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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 6038326" data-attributes="member: 29398">Perhaps, but I was thinking about 1e where a 0th-level type often has at least a chance against a 1st-level type of the same class.  And even -1th level types (i.e. true peasants) can pose a threat at times.The way I see it, there's something wrong with the system if a torch-and-pitchfork mob can't run a low-level party out of town. And, unless you're obsessive about statting everything that moves, you never have to.  But on the off-chance that the 3rd goblin on the left decides (or is ordered) to throw his spear at the party cleric I want a quick-and-nasty framework for what makes him tick; and as I've already got all the info handy about what makes PCs tick why not just use the same stuff? I wasn't thinking about in-game time, I was more thinking of comparing number of rounds - and a round is a round in any edition regardless how many in-game seconds it might represent.A peasant vs. a peasant and a 1st-level Fighter vs. her equal should take about the same amount of (rounds) time to resolve.  In 1e this is about the case.  In 4e there's no real way to tell as (at least from the 4e stuff I've seen) there's no rules for minion vs. minion combat.The other comparison - F-1 vs. F-1 in 1e as as opposed to 4e - I still think the 4e version is going to take more rounds than the 1e version - which means more real-world time is required to resolve it.Now this is a good question, and something I've been half-heartedly waving at for years.  I think it's actually 4 things in one that might need to be sub-divided.Right now a character's level drags a bunch of assumptions into itself: - its "fight level", or how good it is at combat - its hit points, or how much punishment it can absorb before collapsing - its proficiency at various skills dictated by class - its proficiency at various skills and abilities that may have nothing to do with its classIn 1e the first two are true for monsters as well as defined by their HD.Class-proficient skills, i.e. skills that are part of what you do as an adventurer, I have no problem with.  But as for the other three, out-of-class skills (this to me includes almost all non-adventuring skills) should be divorced from level and either chosen by player as in "before adventuring I was a blacksmith" or randomized as in "roll a d10 to see how good a natural swimmer you are".Hit points for monsters can easily be divorced from level/HD - just assign a number and have done with it.Fight level - now there's the tricky one.  For non-adventuring NPCs of any kind and for all monsters it's again easy to divorce fighting ability from level/HD; I've done this many times in the past - an example might be a demon that starts with 24 h.p. but fights like a 15 HD monster, or a reigning king who can't fight worth a damn and has no real class abilities other than he knows how to rule but in effect has about 100 h.p.  But for adventuring types this gets very tricky, to the point where I've never even tried it.Lanefan</blockquote>

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