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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 6049758" data-attributes="member: 87792">I think we're approaching the same page.&nbsp; My take is 1: There should be guidelines for everything an NPC can do that interacts with the PCs.2: For a non-plot-centric NPC you should be able to do this without disrupting the flow of play when (not if) the PCs leave the beaten track.Which means I'm going to give an outside time for the creation of a fast NPC that is fully developed under the rules of 30 seconds, and consider that to be about 25 seconds too long.&nbsp; Ideally I want to be able to do it by writing down half a dozen narrative words, if that.So for our baker in 4e it would be (&quot;five&quot;, (i.e. level 5), &quot;minion brute&quot; (the stats to use) &quot;expert baker&quot; (i.e. hard DC), &quot;inept lover&quot; (i.e. use the easy DCs if someone tries to seduce him)).&nbsp; That would give me all the stats I need in a way that's easy to remember and can be generated straight from the text.&nbsp; And indicates his challenge level to the party.If I want to stat him out with the same level of detail as a PC, I can.&nbsp; He really isn't up to joining the adventuring party (nor are most people).&nbsp; But he's all there and has all the detail he needs for any interaction with the party.&nbsp; I can do this while taking a sip of a drink.I can always add more detail given time.&nbsp; This is not a problem.&nbsp; It's the getting to enough detail and the right degree of challenge fast that's the problem.Out of curiosity, have you ever actually tried playing 4e.&nbsp; Because everything you state above may be true in 2e and certainly is in 3.X but it is flat out wrong in 4e (especially post-MM3).&nbsp; The post-MM3 challenge guidance in 4e is pretty accurate across heroic tier (it slips about one level of challenge rating every five) and leads to fun encounters - and very easy encounter design.&nbsp; (pre-MM3 the monsters didn't scale fast enough so they fixed the math - and designed much better monsters).It is quite obvious in a lot of places that the early 4e books had one year of design/playtesting rather than the two they should have because Orcus was pulled for being terrible.&nbsp; So the PHB1/MM1/DMG1 are very buggy in places.&nbsp; But that's bug not worse than useless as a lot of the 3.X balance is.And having accurate rules for designing a challenging encounter (even MM1 works at low levels) does one huge thing - it allows new DMs to get started without it being too likely they accidently kill PCs or just lob them softballs.&nbsp; This is a huge thing for a game where death is on the line.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 6049758, member: 87792"] I think we're approaching the same page. My take is 1: There should be guidelines for everything an NPC can do that interacts with the PCs. 2: For a non-plot-centric NPC you should be able to do this [I]without disrupting the flow of play[/I] when (not if) the PCs leave the beaten track. Which means I'm going to give an outside time for the creation of a fast NPC that is fully developed under the rules of 30 seconds, and consider that to be about 25 seconds too long. Ideally I want to be able to do it by writing down half a dozen [I]narrative[/I] words, if that. So for our baker in 4e it would be ("five", (i.e. level 5), "minion brute" (the stats to use) "expert baker" (i.e. hard DC), "inept lover" (i.e. use the easy DCs if someone tries to seduce him)). That would give me all the stats I need in a way that's easy to remember and can be generated straight from the text. And indicates his challenge level to the party. If I want to stat him out with the same level of detail as a PC, I can. He really isn't up to joining the adventuring party (nor are most people). But he's all there and has all the detail he needs for any interaction with the party. I can do this while taking a sip of a drink. I can always add [I]more[/I] detail given time. This is not a problem. It's the getting to enough detail and the right degree of challenge [I]fast[/I] that's the problem. Out of curiosity, have you ever actually [I]tried[/I] playing 4e. Because everything you state above may be true in 2e and certainly is in 3.X but it is flat out wrong in 4e (especially post-MM3). The post-MM3 challenge guidance in 4e is pretty accurate across heroic tier (it slips about one level of challenge rating every five) and leads to fun encounters - and very easy encounter design. (pre-MM3 the monsters didn't scale fast enough so they fixed the math - and designed much better monsters). It is quite obvious in a lot of places that the early 4e books had one year of design/playtesting rather than the two they should have because Orcus was pulled for being terrible. So the PHB1/MM1/DMG1 are very buggy in places. But that's bug not worse than useless as a lot of the 3.X balance is. And having accurate rules for designing a challenging encounter (even MM1 works at low levels) does one huge thing - it allows new DMs to get started without it being too likely they accidently kill PCs or just lob them softballs. This is a huge thing for a game where death is on the line. [/QUOTE]

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