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<blockquote data-quote="Fanaelialae" data-source="post: 7215613" data-attributes="member: 53980">Using Sleep to roll a hobgoblin off a cliff isn't a rules shenanigan. For starters, it only works if you happen to have a cliff laying around. Trying to rules lawyer that you ought to be able to insta-kill the hobgoblin by breaking his neck with a pile driver while he sleeps would be rules shenanigans (in my book). The DM can allow you to insta-kill a sleeping enemy, but he's also within his rights to require you to engage with it through the rules (meaning that you have to eliminate its hp).It seems to me this is more along the lines of &quot;what's good for the goose is good for the gander&quot;. If the PCs (try to) insta-kill their enemies by throwing them off of cliffs while they sleep, and putting them into boxes while they are polymorphed, then the players should expect to be on the receiving end of such tactics as well (which is both reasonable and to be expected when running the Combat as War style game that these tactics imply). IMO, this quickly becomes a losing proposition for the players since, unless there are absolutely no penalties for death in your game or the DM plays with kid's gloves on, PCs are far less expendable than the DM's effectively infinite pool of easily replaceable monsters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Fanaelialae, post: 7215613, member: 53980"] Using Sleep to roll a hobgoblin off a cliff isn't a rules shenanigan. For starters, it only works if you happen to have a cliff laying around. Trying to rules lawyer that you ought to be able to insta-kill the hobgoblin by breaking his neck with a pile driver while he sleeps would be rules shenanigans (in my book). The DM can allow you to insta-kill a sleeping enemy, but he's also within his rights to require you to engage with it through the rules (meaning that you have to eliminate its hp). It seems to me this is more along the lines of "what's good for the goose is good for the gander". If the PCs (try to) insta-kill their enemies by throwing them off of cliffs while they sleep, and putting them into boxes while they are polymorphed, then the players should expect to be on the receiving end of such tactics as well (which is both reasonable and to be expected when running the Combat as War style game that these tactics imply). IMO, this quickly becomes a losing proposition for the players since, unless there are absolutely no penalties for death in your game or the DM plays with kid's gloves on, PCs are far less expendable than the DM's effectively infinite pool of easily replaceable monsters. [/QUOTE]

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