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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 1815567" data-attributes="member: 5777">Now we are talking about wildshape? lol.. okSo, the druid loses a huge amount of equipment (effectively down to headband, goggles, necklass, and that is about it), a huge amount of movement (compared with other shapes he could've taken instead), a hit to ac (albiet most animals are like this, but then most animals have more item slots to help alleviate this problem), the inability to cast spells (unless natural spell is taken, so yet another cost), he doesnt even get to do all that much damage with each of them, and he gets to hold his breath the whole time (aquatic subtype but no mention of the ability to breathe air)I guess it mainly just comes down to there being much better forms to take. Sure, 8 attacks is impressive, but given the sheer mangitude of creatures he can choose from the giant octopus doesnt really stand up (oohh.. punny).It is a fun spell <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> but then we are talking about a pretty high level druid, one of his wildshapes for the day (which is turning him into something that he must hold his breath for), a feat (for natural spell), and a higher level slot (taking another round, and it has a vocal component which is probably bad for a guy holding his breath).Sure, there might be other guys where they have a lot of attacks without this restriction, but given the built in limitations for such creatures it doesnt seem to be overpowered.I have no problem with a low level guy turning into a creature with two claws and a bite via alter self. This will get them into melee, but likely they will still be doing pretty piddly damage, but at least they will get to roll a few times now and then <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />At polymorph level gaining the natural attack routine (but not the ability to get more attacks than 'normal', which to me means if you can attack once with a weapon then you cant use an extra limb for an extra attack with some weapon, but natural attack routines are exempt from this clause as they are the natural attack routine <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ) which is nice but not always helpful, as shown above.Apparently you think that the octopus is way out of line though, can you explain why? Other than, 'but it has 8 attacks!' <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Btw, if I was an 8th level druid and had a choice between giant octopus and a dire lion (which is an option at this level) the dire lion would win everytime while on land and the octopus would win everytime while in the water. But, it isnt because of number of attacks, they both get about the same amount over a couple of rounds.</blockquote>

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