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Message: <blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 5711864" data-attributes="member: 22424">So, I've been thinking about <a href="http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/4ll/20110927" target="_blank">Monte's "Legends & Lore" article about perception</a>, and the more I think about it, the more I think he's trying to adjust details of the mechanics (that mostly work fine) in order to fix what is actually an adventure design problem.Whether it's done using a check against a Search skill, or using Passive Perception, or using his proposed ranks system, or whatever else, the rules for the system will basically work just fine. And, frankly, it won't make a great deal of difference which one you use - they all use more or less the same process to get more or less the same results.But the problem is that using a mechanical solution to find hidden features in the dungeon is boring. The PCs walk into the room, they search the room (using whatever process), they get the information, they move on.And it gets worse, because in most cases the only way for the PCs to find this information is by searching, and very often the adventure gives no indication as to where to search. And so, the PCs just have to search everywhere. And so every door becomes a matter of "I check for traps. I remove the traps. Is the door locked? I open the lock..." Every room gets searched according to an ever-increasing set of Standard Operating Procedures, coupled with the appropriate rolls, made without any particular care so that the party can (a) get all the loot (or avoid the traps), and (b) move on as quickly as possible.Instead, I'm inclined to think that elements in the game like traps and secret doors (but, actually, also including locked doors and even outright puzzles) should be in the game mostly as a challenge to players and not to their characters.So, I would suggest the following:Mechanically:- Searches should be limited to "we search the room". This should take several minutes (they can combine it with a Short Rest), and allow a single roll made by a single character. And no, they can't take 10 or 20 on the roll. (I'm torn on whether to allow Aid Another. Basically, either allow it and raise the DC, or disallow it and just assume that everyone is pitching in. The letter is probably preferable as it's quicker, and makes the probabilities more controlled.)- The DC for hidden elements should generally allow a 70%-ish chance of success. So, if the party rogue has a Perception mod of +8, the DC on checks should be approx 15. (Obviously, this should really be tailored according to PC level rather than an absolute value - see "page 42" or its equivalent.) This means that a skilled character will find most but not all hidden elements on a simple search... but that's fine.(The same should almost certainly also be true of attempts to open locks and disable traps, as well.)- Passive Perception should never find a hidden element. It's still of use, but it represents a defence against others sneaking up on you, and not a Spidey-sense for traps.(If Passive Perception can find hidden elements, then the DC for searches needs to be much higher, or else having hidden elements at all becomes pointless. Problem is, those hidden elements then go from "always found" to "never found", and you're back to constant search checks anyway!)But in adventure design:- Include lots of hidden elements. This allows the trained Rogue his chance to shine (as he finds lots of secret doors and traps), while at the same time still leaving some challenge (because he doesn't find everything). (As a rule of thumb, an adventure the size of "Keep on the Shadowfell" should probably include 10 such hidden elements.)- For every hidden element, include at least three clues to its existence hidden around the dungeon (and not all in the location of the hidden element). This could be a treasure map with the secret door marked, or a scrawl on the wall left by the hobgoblins' last prisoner, or the skull of the last adventure to die in the trap, or scratches on the floor, or whatever. But be sure to leave the clues in places where the characters can find them.In general, these clues should be found automatically when the party searches the appropriate room. Nesting hidden elements just makes it that much less likely that they'll be found.- When the players try the specific thing to trigger the hidden element, they should find it automatically. So, if the party are deep inside Peter the Mad Dentist's dungeon and they find a statue with scratches at its base, they might reasonably conclude "we try the statue's teeth"... whereupon it will slide aside to reveal a hidden compartment.And returning to the question of locked doors and traps mentioned above, the same should apply - in addition to the Rogue simply applying his skill to these things, there should be alternate ways past. Once the PCs have learned "only the penitent man shall pass", they may be able to bypass the trap without a roll. Likewise, if there's a locked door, there should probably be a key somewhere in the dungeon.- Don't include more than one hidden element in a single place. Don't bother with traps on locked doors, or having two secret doors in a single room, or... Again, either the group will find both with a single roll (which seems a waste of a hidden element), or they'll find one and assume that there's nothing more to see. Remember, you want them to at least have a decent chance of finding everything, at least given a modicum of good play.- It should go without saying, but... never build a dungeon that requires the PCs to find a specific hidden area to complete. Otherwise, you're going to get some very frustrated players when they blow all their search checks and can't find (or decipher) the clues.As for the issue of the "Standard Operating Procedures", these are a playstyle issue, much like the "15 minute Adventuring Day". In fact, they're probably a response to DMs who have hidden elements in their game, require the players to figure out exactly where they are, and who have provided insufficient clues to enable them to do that. Therefore, the group is reduced to exhaustively going through the dungeon interacting with every single element in every possible way to find the one hidden item in the dungeon. This is combated by making sure there are means of finding the hidden elements, by not simply springing death traps on them without any warning, and then by encouraging them to move on reasonably briskly.(It is probably worth noting that almost all of this applies to all sorts of hidden elements in the game. The application to secret doors and traps is obvious, but it can also be applied to other things. Perhaps the bandit leader's lieutenant is willing to betray his boss if his crimes are forgiven - the PCs can then negotiate him with Diplomacy (as per the 70% rule-of-thumb above), but alternately if they've put together the clues they can go directly to the solution for an auto-success.)</blockquote>

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