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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 5697264" data-attributes="member: 2011">I don't want it to be fair and balanced. But, I do want it to be semi-reasonable and not super ridiculous.When one looks at the minions in the oil, one understands that it is a lose lose proposition for any group of PCs.The DM did not have to have the Hell Hound hit the minions. The first PC that hits a minion will have that minion run in, do a close burst fire, which will light the oil, which will kill the rest of the minions, which will have them move in and blow up.So, initiative doesn't matter. The DM was throwing hundreds of points of damage at the PCs regardless of who attacked a minion first. I like the concept of Lair Assault challenging the players beyond what they were ever challenged, but seriously. Think about it. The only reason the one PC didn't get caught up in this tactic was because he was moving away and taking 3 OAs to do it. The DM set up a scenario where it was likely to have 2 or 3 PCs unconscious and 2 or 3 only barely conscious in round one, almost regardless of what the players did. In fact, I was suprised that the DM had to do Coup de Grace in round two because two close burst ones (out of 8) on unconscious PCs (nearly autohit) should have killed them.Any other group who were not trying to auto-teleport through the doors in round one would have gotten all 5 PCs creamed in round one. This group actually lucked out in that one PC got out of the room. This makes save or die look like a walk in the park because at least there, the players have a chance to save.It's one thing to seriously challenge the players. It's another to cream the PCs regardless of initiative in round one. I don't see the point of playing the adventure if the DM is going to go to these extremes. In fact, even without nightmare mode, this tactic of 8 minions in the oil plus a single trap could have easily killed a few PCs in nearly any party. Put 3 NPCs behind the first door and and the finish the adventure in 5 rounds scenario is practically undoable.</blockquote>

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