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<blockquote data-quote="Puggins" data-source="post: 8076043" data-attributes="member: 12386"><p>I think these qualify as "out of the box" thinking, but they're definitely legitimate points- spellcasters maybe shouldn't expect to be able to rely on spells constantly throughout an adventure. This thinking was pretty much baked into the rules before 3rd edition.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I DEFINITELY disagree here. The turning point is at 7th, when they get expert spell casting and 4th level spells all at once. At 5th and 6th they are so woefully behind martial user in attack bonus and equivalent DC and still predominantly saddled with reflex-oriented spells (which is the strongest save for most low level monsters) that even equivalent level enemies are really difficult to hit.</p><p></p><p>Reference:</p><p>6th level fighter using +1 sword, 19 str -> 6 (level) + 6 (proficiency) + 4 (Str) + 1 (weapon) = +17</p><p>6th level paladin using + 1 sword, 19 str -> 6 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 4 (str) + 1 (weapon) = +15</p><p>6th level wizard, 19int -> 6 (level) +2 (proficiency) + 4 (Int) = +12</p><p></p><p>In terms of effectiveness, paladins have (roughly) the equivalent of advantage from 5e in hitting any given monster compared to the wizard. The fighter has substantially more than that.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Let's be honest, though- most of the others aren't relying on attack spells to contribute. Don't know if the Oracle or Witch makes this list now either.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Puggins, post: 8076043, member: 12386"] I think these qualify as "out of the box" thinking, but they're definitely legitimate points- spellcasters maybe shouldn't expect to be able to rely on spells constantly throughout an adventure. This thinking was pretty much baked into the rules before 3rd edition. I DEFINITELY disagree here. The turning point is at 7th, when they get expert spell casting and 4th level spells all at once. At 5th and 6th they are so woefully behind martial user in attack bonus and equivalent DC and still predominantly saddled with reflex-oriented spells (which is the strongest save for most low level monsters) that even equivalent level enemies are really difficult to hit. Reference: 6th level fighter using +1 sword, 19 str -> 6 (level) + 6 (proficiency) + 4 (Str) + 1 (weapon) = +17 6th level paladin using + 1 sword, 19 str -> 6 (level) + 4 (proficiency) + 4 (str) + 1 (weapon) = +15 6th level wizard, 19int -> 6 (level) +2 (proficiency) + 4 (Int) = +12 In terms of effectiveness, paladins have (roughly) the equivalent of advantage from 5e in hitting any given monster compared to the wizard. The fighter has substantially more than that. Let's be honest, though- most of the others aren't relying on attack spells to contribute. Don't know if the Oracle or Witch makes this list now either. [/QUOTE]
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