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<blockquote data-quote="frisbeet" data-source="post: 2361554" data-attributes="member: 10287">some analysisLet’s see some numbers.&nbsp; Here’s the average full attack damage/round for 3 core (for simplicity) characters.&nbsp; They aren’t exactly equal because apples-to-apples comparisons, even hypothetical, are impossible in the D&amp;D context (and idiotic).Character1Barbarian 20Str 40 (16 lvl 1, +5 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.), +8 raging)Dex 16 (16 lvl 1)Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), and Power AttackWeapon (+10): +5 Speed Flaming Shock FachionPartial equipment value: 373875 gp (200375 (weapon), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt))Character2Fighter20Str 28 (16 lvl 1, +1 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.))Dex 20 (16 lvl 1, +4 lvl)Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Improved Critical (Short Sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon FightingWeapon1 (+10):+5 Speed Flaming Shock Short SwordWeapon2 (+8):+5 Flaming Frost Shock Short Sword Partial equipment value: 502120 gp (328620 (weapons), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt))Character3Barbarian7Str 23 (16 lvl 1, +1 lvl, +2 magic, +4 raging)Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Power AttackWeapon (+1): +1 FachionPartial equipment value: 6375 gp (2375 (weapon), 4000 (gauntlets))Here’s how they’d fare if only they knew their opponent’s AC.&nbsp; With such knowledge the two Barbarians could power attack for precisely the optimum PA maximizing average damage.&nbsp; This analysis takes into account critical hits and can be recapitulated with the power attack spreadsheet on my site (signature)—along with nearly any other character you can think up.My point is three-fold:1).&nbsp; Show that this analysis can be done, and with tools such as at my site, should be done to avoid sloppy, incomplete, and misleading analysis, and to provide an idea of the magnitude of things (average damage).2).&nbsp; See how two core characters come out at high level.&nbsp; While I presume to already know the answer, the numbers will speak for themselves.&nbsp; What about other comparisons?&nbsp; Like with Dervish or Invisible Blade, etc.?&nbsp; This post doesn’t address such comparisons—but see the 1st point and do the assisted math yourself!3).&nbsp; The thread topic: if you’re comfortable with the discrepancy between high level THF and high level TWF in 3.5, the uptick in PA efficacy from 3.0 should be a-ok.&nbsp; On the other hand, the high damage difference between Barb20 optimally Power Attacking (the &quot;B20+PA&quot; column below) and not PAing at all (the Brb20 column) or TWF (the TW20 column) is staggering at low-mid ACs.&nbsp; Truly it is a must tactic for pure damage optimizers.&nbsp; Optimizing effectiveness, however, doesn't always require maxing average damage, as has been pointed out.&nbsp; TWF with a couple vorpal weapons dripping with acid and a little sneak attack and you'll be fine.&nbsp; Anway, is PA3.5 too powerful?&nbsp; No. IMO. But I get the concern.Finally, the spew:[CODE]AC&nbsp; &nbsp; Brb20&nbsp; &nbsp; PA&nbsp; &nbsp; B20+PA&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; TW20&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Brb7&nbsp; &nbsp; PA&nbsp; &nbsp; Brb7+PA10&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 467.8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 32.8&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 55.011&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 462.8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 32.8&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 51.712&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 457.7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 32.8&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 48.413&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 452.7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 31.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 45.014&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 442.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 31.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 41.915&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 432.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 30.2&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 38.816&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 422.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 29.3&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 35.917&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 412.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 28.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 33.118&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 20&nbsp; &nbsp; 402.4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 26.7&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 30.419&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 19&nbsp; &nbsp; 392.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 25.0&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 27.820&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 18&nbsp; &nbsp; 381.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 23.3&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 25.421&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 17&nbsp; &nbsp; 371.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 242.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 21.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 22.922&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 16&nbsp; &nbsp; 360.8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 240.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 19.8&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 20.823&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 15&nbsp; &nbsp; 350.4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 238.9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 18.624&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 14&nbsp; &nbsp; 340.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 237.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 16.4&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 16.625&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 13&nbsp; &nbsp; 329.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 235.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 14.7&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 14.726&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 12&nbsp; &nbsp; 319.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 234.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 12.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 12.927&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 11&nbsp; &nbsp; 308.8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 229.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 11.2&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 11.228&nbsp; &nbsp; 230.9&nbsp; &nbsp; 10&nbsp; &nbsp; 298.4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 224.4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 9.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 9.529&nbsp; &nbsp; 228.4&nbsp; &nbsp; 9&nbsp; &nbsp; 288.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 219.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 7.7&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 7.730&nbsp; &nbsp; 226.0&nbsp; &nbsp; 8&nbsp; &nbsp; 277.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 214.8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 6.0&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 6.031&nbsp; &nbsp; 223.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 267.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 210.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 5.132&nbsp; &nbsp; 221.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 257.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 202.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4.2&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 4.233&nbsp; &nbsp; 218.7&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 247.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 194.1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3.4&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.434&nbsp; &nbsp; 213.8&nbsp; &nbsp; 6&nbsp; &nbsp; 237.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 186.1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2.4&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.035&nbsp; &nbsp; 209.0&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 227.9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 178.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.036&nbsp; &nbsp; 204.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; 218.7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 170.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.037&nbsp; &nbsp; 199.3&nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; 209.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 157.3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.038&nbsp; &nbsp; 194.4&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 200.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 144.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.039&nbsp; &nbsp; 187.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 191.3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 131.8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.040&nbsp; &nbsp; 179.8&nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; 182.5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 120.7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.041&nbsp; &nbsp; 172.5&nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; 174.1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 109.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.042&nbsp; &nbsp; 164.8&nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; 165.7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 98.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.043&nbsp; &nbsp; 157.3&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 157.3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 87.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.044&nbsp; &nbsp; 145.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 145.1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 76.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.045&nbsp; &nbsp; 133.0&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 133.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 68.1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.046&nbsp; &nbsp; 121.1&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 121.1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 60.1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.047&nbsp; &nbsp; 111.0&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 111.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 51.9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.048&nbsp; &nbsp; 101.0&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 101.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 43.8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.049&nbsp; &nbsp; 91.2&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 91.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 36.0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.050&nbsp; &nbsp; 81.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; 81.6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 31.2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1.6&nbsp; &nbsp; 7&nbsp; &nbsp; 3.0[/CODE]Edit: So like, the AC is your opponent's and the PA values listed are the ones which maximize damage, turning 194.4 to 200.2 PA-ing for 3 against AC38 with the Barb20, for example.&nbsp; Case that wasn't clear.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="frisbeet, post: 2361554, member: 10287"] [b]some analysis[/b] Let’s see some numbers. Here’s the average full attack damage/round for 3 core (for simplicity) characters. They aren’t exactly equal because apples-to-apples comparisons, even hypothetical, are impossible in the D&D context (and idiotic). Character1 Barbarian 20 Str 40 (16 lvl 1, +5 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.), +8 raging) Dex 16 (16 lvl 1) Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Improved Critical (Falchion), and Power Attack Weapon (+10): +5 Speed Flaming Shock Fachion Partial equipment value: 373875 gp (200375 (weapon), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt)) Character2 Fighter20 Str 28 (16 lvl 1, +1 lvl, +6 magic, +5 inherent (wish, manual, etc.)) Dex 20 (16 lvl 1, +4 lvl) Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Focus (Short Sword), Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Greater Weapon Specialization (Short Sword), Improved Critical (Short Sword), Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Weapon1 (+10): +5 Speed Flaming Shock Short Sword Weapon2 (+8): +5 Flaming Frost Shock Short Sword Partial equipment value: 502120 gp (328620 (weapons), 137500 (manual), 36000 (belt)) Character3 Barbarian7 Str 23 (16 lvl 1, +1 lvl, +2 magic, +4 raging) Relevant feats: Weapon Focus (Falchion), Power Attack Weapon (+1): +1 Fachion Partial equipment value: 6375 gp (2375 (weapon), 4000 (gauntlets)) Here’s how they’d fare if only they knew their opponent’s AC. With such knowledge the two Barbarians could power attack for precisely the optimum PA maximizing average damage. This analysis takes into account critical hits and can be recapitulated with the power attack spreadsheet on my site (signature)—along with nearly any other character you can think up. My point is three-fold: 1). Show that this analysis can be done, and with tools such as at my site, should be done to avoid sloppy, incomplete, and misleading analysis, and to provide an idea of the magnitude of things (average damage). 2). See how two core characters come out at high level. While I presume to already know the answer, the numbers will speak for themselves. What about other comparisons? Like with Dervish or Invisible Blade, etc.? This post doesn’t address such comparisons—but see the 1st point and do the assisted math yourself! 3). The thread topic: if you’re comfortable with the discrepancy between high level THF and high level TWF in 3.5, the uptick in PA efficacy from 3.0 should be a-ok. [COLOR=DarkOrange]On the other hand, the high damage difference between Barb20 optimally Power Attacking (the "B20+PA" column below) and not PAing at all (the Brb20 column) or TWF (the TW20 column) is staggering at low-mid ACs. Truly it is a must tactic for pure damage optimizers.[/COLOR] Optimizing effectiveness, however, doesn't always require maxing average damage, as has been pointed out. TWF with a couple vorpal weapons dripping with acid and a little sneak attack and you'll be fine. [COLOR=DarkOrange]Anway, is PA3.5 too powerful? No. IMO.[/COLOR] But I get the concern. Finally, the spew: [CODE]AC Brb20 PA B20+PA TW20 Brb7 PA Brb7+PA 10 230.9 20 467.8 242.2 32.8 7 55.0 11 230.9 20 462.8 242.2 32.8 7 51.7 12 230.9 20 457.7 242.2 32.8 7 48.4 13 230.9 20 452.7 242.2 31.9 6 45.0 14 230.9 20 442.6 242.2 31.1 6 41.9 15 230.9 20 432.6 242.2 30.2 5 38.8 16 230.9 20 422.5 242.2 29.3 5 35.9 17 230.9 20 412.5 242.2 28.5 4 33.1 18 230.9 20 402.4 242.2 26.7 4 30.4 19 230.9 19 392.0 242.2 25.0 3 27.8 20 230.9 18 381.6 242.2 23.3 3 25.4 21 230.9 17 371.2 242.2 21.6 2 22.9 22 230.9 16 360.8 240.5 19.8 2 20.8 23 230.9 15 350.4 238.9 18.1 2 18.6 24 230.9 14 340.0 237.2 16.4 1 16.6 25 230.9 13 329.6 235.6 14.7 0 14.7 26 230.9 12 319.2 234.0 12.9 0 12.9 27 230.9 11 308.8 229.2 11.2 0 11.2 28 230.9 10 298.4 224.4 9.5 0 9.5 29 228.4 9 288.0 219.6 7.7 0 7.7 30 226.0 8 277.6 214.8 6.0 0 6.0 31 223.6 7 267.2 210.0 5.1 0 5.1 32 221.1 7 257.2 202.0 4.2 0 4.2 33 218.7 6 247.2 194.1 3.4 0 3.4 34 213.8 6 237.5 186.1 2.4 7 3.0 35 209.0 5 227.9 178.2 1.6 7 3.0 36 204.1 5 218.7 170.2 1.6 7 3.0 37 199.3 4 209.5 157.3 1.6 7 3.0 38 194.4 3 200.2 144.5 1.6 7 3.0 39 187.1 3 191.3 131.8 1.6 7 3.0 40 179.8 3 182.5 120.7 1.6 7 3.0 41 172.5 2 174.1 109.6 1.6 7 3.0 42 164.8 1 165.7 98.2 1.6 7 3.0 43 157.3 0 157.3 87.0 1.6 7 3.0 44 145.1 0 145.1 76.0 1.6 7 3.0 45 133.0 0 133.0 68.1 1.6 7 3.0 46 121.1 0 121.1 60.1 1.6 7 3.0 47 111.0 0 111.0 51.9 1.6 7 3.0 48 101.0 0 101.0 43.8 1.6 7 3.0 49 91.2 0 91.2 36.0 1.6 7 3.0 50 81.6 0 81.6 31.2 1.6 7 3.0 [/CODE] Edit: So like, the AC is your opponent's and the PA values listed are the ones which maximize damage, turning 194.4 to 200.2 PA-ing for 3 against AC38 with the Barb20, for example. Case that wasn't clear. [/QUOTE]

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