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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7725288" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I wasn't replying to you. I know (from reading earlier posts/threads of yours) that you want a system for pricing/buying/building magic items that is balanced from the point of view of PC build mechanics.</p><p></p><p>But that didn't seem to be what [MENTION=6873517]Jay Verkuilen[/MENTION] was asking for.</p><p></p><p>It's quite conceivable that there <em>is no mechanic that will meet your requirements</em>. But Jay Verkuilen pointed to AD&D as providng an example of what he might want - and the AD&D rules manifestly are not a balanced system of PC-build rules. Rather, they're guidelines for how the GM should handle the item-creation process, which includes injecting balance at whatever point s/he wants to in whatever way s/he wants to.</p><p></p><p>It's nothing like what 3E or 4e provided. (And it seems to be widely recognised that 3E fails in what you're asking for, and 4e largely achieves it by making magic items "boring".)</p><p></p><p>The AD&D system has rules for costing potions - gp = to XP value, which are so cheap (once you get to the 7th level needed to make them) that it is not a balance constraint at all. (The time required is, and perhaps the need for an alchemist.)</p><p></p><p>The rules for making scrolls don't provide any cost guidelines (the cost of parchment is trivial; the ink costs what the GM thinks appropriate, though the Write spell offers some ideas - 200 to 500 gp - which is also pretty trivial at 7th level). The constraint is time, which is 1 day per spell level.</p><p></p><p>If you were happy with these guidelines in AD&D (as in, they didn't break your game by generating too-ready access to potions and scrolls) then I would expect them to work fine in 5e.</p><p></p><p>The rules for making permanent items in AD&D are even sketchier than the potion and scroll rules. They are pure GM fiat - in terms of ingredients required, cost of said ingredients, etc. This "system" is pretty trivially transferable to any other edition if desired.</p><p></p><p>I guess my point is that comparing the AD&D system to the 3E or 4e systems is fundamentally misleading. AD&D didn't purport to present a mechanical system for allowing item construction or purchase/resale as a balanced part of the game. Those later editions did - but only 4e really succeeded at it, with the side-effect of watering down the significance of items pretty heavily.</p><p></p><p>Items in 5e seem more AD&D-like than 4e-like in their functionality. That means that a 4e-style system for making them is probably not feasible. But if it's going to be AD&D-like - ie punt everything to the GM to maintain balance by injecting suitably challenging requirements for ingredients, processes etc - then the AD&D system is there for you to adapt.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7725288, member: 42582"] I wasn't replying to you. I know (from reading earlier posts/threads of yours) that you want a system for pricing/buying/building magic items that is balanced from the point of view of PC build mechanics. But that didn't seem to be what [MENTION=6873517]Jay Verkuilen[/MENTION] was asking for. It's quite conceivable that there [I]is no mechanic that will meet your requirements[/i]. But Jay Verkuilen pointed to AD&D as providng an example of what he might want - and the AD&D rules manifestly are not a balanced system of PC-build rules. Rather, they're guidelines for how the GM should handle the item-creation process, which includes injecting balance at whatever point s/he wants to in whatever way s/he wants to. It's nothing like what 3E or 4e provided. (And it seems to be widely recognised that 3E fails in what you're asking for, and 4e largely achieves it by making magic items "boring".) The AD&D system has rules for costing potions - gp = to XP value, which are so cheap (once you get to the 7th level needed to make them) that it is not a balance constraint at all. (The time required is, and perhaps the need for an alchemist.) The rules for making scrolls don't provide any cost guidelines (the cost of parchment is trivial; the ink costs what the GM thinks appropriate, though the Write spell offers some ideas - 200 to 500 gp - which is also pretty trivial at 7th level). The constraint is time, which is 1 day per spell level. If you were happy with these guidelines in AD&D (as in, they didn't break your game by generating too-ready access to potions and scrolls) then I would expect them to work fine in 5e. The rules for making permanent items in AD&D are even sketchier than the potion and scroll rules. They are pure GM fiat - in terms of ingredients required, cost of said ingredients, etc. This "system" is pretty trivially transferable to any other edition if desired. I guess my point is that comparing the AD&D system to the 3E or 4e systems is fundamentally misleading. AD&D didn't purport to present a mechanical system for allowing item construction or purchase/resale as a balanced part of the game. Those later editions did - but only 4e really succeeded at it, with the side-effect of watering down the significance of items pretty heavily. Items in 5e seem more AD&D-like than 4e-like in their functionality. That means that a 4e-style system for making them is probably not feasible. But if it's going to be AD&D-like - ie punt everything to the GM to maintain balance by injecting suitably challenging requirements for ingredients, processes etc - then the AD&D system is there for you to adapt. [/QUOTE]
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