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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7627804" data-attributes="member: 6750235">That is why I was giving my opinion on building below 10th level. Why did you bring up an argument for PAM in games up to 10th level if the characters aren't taking it?  The variant human can start with 16 STR and 16 WIS.  Heavy armor wearers want 15 STR so the bump to 16 is already basic.  2 ASI's bumps both to 18's to match the 18 wisdom your example has leaving it without the gain for having taken shillelagh.Taking resilient con starts the cleric with 16's in STR, CON, and WIS if the character doesn't mind 8's for DEX, INT, and CHA on point buy variant human.  5 ASI's later that's two 20's and an 18, or 16 CON adding another feat like PAM.  Going with an 18 in WIS or STR for a small dip and 16 CON allows for PAM plus GWM. Mix and match to taste and there'splenty of room for melee power, spell casting, and benefits for concentration. Tossing in GWM easily beats shillelagh, which cannot use that feat.  Swapping resilient for HAM gives the same ability score spread and it's a lot more useful for lower levels than shillelagh. The melee clerics invest in strength if they wear heavy armor and dexterity if they wear moderate armor.  That's not different than the str / cha paladin.It doesn't take medium armor master.  Heavy armor proficiency is the same feat cost but gives up needing the dexterity investment to save build points.  The reason to take that medium armor master is for stealth with a higher armor class.  It's not a way to build armor class on a cleric unless that cleric is dex / wis who likes to use stealth in armor. Melee clerics start with enough STR or DEX depending on the armor that adding more isn't a big issue.  Neither is risking a +1 hit/damage difference in a <10th level game.  The +1 damage on a single attack class is extremely minor and can be mitigated with higher damage weapons at the expense of AC if a person really values it that much.  The +1 to hit only matters once in every 20 attacks on average assuming no advantage and the high the cleric levels the more likely the cleric is to use actions on spells instead of attacks.Taking magic initiate as a feat has an opportunity cost.  The real benefit of shillelagh is to open up room for feats instead of ASI's at high levels.  PAM with 18 STR and 18 WIS at 10th level is better than shillelagh with 20 WIS and no PAM at 10th level.  At 12th level when you take PAM the non-shillelagh cleric just tops up another ASI.  That's also not optimizing.  It's basic.  The opportunity cost on taking shillelagh is the issue when looking at having taken resilient for concentration.  I'd still rather spend that bonus feat on resilient con as a melee cleric because that benefits me better in the long run over the +1 hit/damage.I have done the shillelagh + green-flame blade as well.  At 6th level on a lore bard and on a 3rd level warlock via book of shadows, both with moderately armored as the bonus 1st level feat on a variant human.  It's a relatively easy way to get a melee option on a caster but hardly optimized.  It's more of a niche than a standard recommendation.ymmv </blockquote>

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