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Powergamer Cleric= Variant Human?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7628196" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">4th or 5th level. About the same time that first ASI hits. It'll be a lot longer before shillelagh makes a significant difference.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Heavy armor causes disadvantage on the checks when a person is trying to be stealthy. Castings spells is not even trying to be stealthy. It's deliberately making noise instead of trying to be quiet. Your armor analogy is the equivalent of not caring how much noise the armor makes instead of attempting to be stealthy.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">It can also be catastrophic in social settings.</span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Which matters little but is also the reason to go for resilient con over war caster. Top up.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">My sample stat spread (1st level):</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">16 STR</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> 8 DEX</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">13 CON</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">10 INT</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">16 WIS</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">12 CHA</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Your sample stat spread:</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">12 STR</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">14 DEX</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">14 CON</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"> 8 INT</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">16 WIS</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">10 CHA</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p>Something like that. I'm not sure where you were putting your dump stat but you gave up AC and damage reduction in order to not have a better attack and damage bonus. The CON difference in hp is low at low levels and gets bumped up with a partial bonus on a feat.</p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">So we're playing to level 1 now? Moving the goal posts from when it was an under level 10 game. It's also misleading because DPR drops to 0 when the character is a puddle. The PC is giving up AC and damage reduction for that bonus attack.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">It also ignores the option for TWF. Granted, TWF isn't much of a benefit and it also gives up AC but the damage reduction is still there and there is still one bonus action attack used in TWF that is being spent casting shillelagh.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">While it is technically true that the damage benefit is there at that low level, it doesn't last and it comes a lot more from PAM than it does shillelagh. It's decent enough with nature domain because of the easy access but untrue with other domains, keep relevant to the topic. It's also a short term gain that doesn't hold out in the long run for most of the game.</span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Every domain has benefits. This is a just one of the differences. I wouldn't recommend faerie fire because it competes with concentration and different forms of advantage don't stack.</span></span></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"></p><p></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">The argument seems to be that because nature clerics can easily take shillelagh and use it with PAM on a human variant then all clerics should take shillelagh with a human variant and then take PAM at 12th level even though you don't expect to get to 8th level anymore after arguing 10th level earlier. That's all based on your comments.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">Moving the goal posts to even lower levels in order to ignore the spirit weapon argument does not demonstrate that this is something a power gamer would do. Let me repost your premise.</span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"></span></span></p></span></span></p><p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'">What you are demonstrating is that it's advantageous for nature clerics who acquire it through a method other than magic initiate at low levels before bonus actions come on board for other builds.</span></span></p></p> <p style="text-align: left"><strong><em><u>[SUB][SUP]</u></em></strong></span></span></p> <p style="text-align: left"><span style="color: #222222"><span style="font-family: 'Verdana'"><strong><em><u>[/SUP][/SUB]</u></em></strong></span></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 7628196, member: 6750235"] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] 4th or 5th level. About the same time that first ASI hits. It'll be a lot longer before shillelagh makes a significant difference.[/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Heavy armor causes disadvantage on the checks when a person is trying to be stealthy. Castings spells is not even trying to be stealthy. It's deliberately making noise instead of trying to be quiet. Your armor analogy is the equivalent of not caring how much noise the armor makes instead of attempting to be stealthy. It can also be catastrophic in social settings.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Which matters little but is also the reason to go for resilient con over war caster. Top up. My sample stat spread (1st level): 16 STR 8 DEX 13 CON 10 INT 16 WIS 12 CHA Your sample stat spread: 12 STR 14 DEX 14 CON 8 INT 16 WIS 10 CHA [/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] Something like that. I'm not sure where you were putting your dump stat but you gave up AC and damage reduction in order to not have a better attack and damage bonus. The CON difference in hp is low at low levels and gets bumped up with a partial bonus on a feat. [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] So we're playing to level 1 now? Moving the goal posts from when it was an under level 10 game. It's also misleading because DPR drops to 0 when the character is a puddle. The PC is giving up AC and damage reduction for that bonus attack. It also ignores the option for TWF. Granted, TWF isn't much of a benefit and it also gives up AC but the damage reduction is still there and there is still one bonus action attack used in TWF that is being spent casting shillelagh. While it is technically true that the damage benefit is there at that low level, it doesn't last and it comes a lot more from PAM than it does shillelagh. It's decent enough with nature domain because of the easy access but untrue with other domains, keep relevant to the topic. It's also a short term gain that doesn't hold out in the long run for most of the game.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] Every domain has benefits. This is a just one of the differences. I wouldn't recommend faerie fire because it competes with concentration and different forms of advantage don't stack.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]The argument seems to be that because nature clerics can easily take shillelagh and use it with PAM on a human variant then all clerics should take shillelagh with a human variant and then take PAM at 12th level even though you don't expect to get to 8th level anymore after arguing 10th level earlier. That's all based on your comments. Moving the goal posts to even lower levels in order to ignore the spirit weapon argument does not demonstrate that this is something a power gamer would do. Let me repost your premise. [LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana][/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana] What you are demonstrating is that it's advantageous for nature clerics who acquire it through a method other than magic initiate at low levels before bonus actions come on board for other builds.[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][B][I][U][SUB][SUP] [/SUP][/SUB][/U][/I][/B][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT] [/QUOTE]
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