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Message: <blockquote data-quote="StreamOfTheSky" data-source="post: 5669143" data-attributes="member: 35909">Your opinion on "power" is extremely flawed...First off, while it SHOULD work like the player assumes (IMO) if you read closely, unlike Uncanny Dodge / Improved UD, gaining Evasion when you already have it does NOT grant you Improved Evasion, there is no text that says so.  Again, I think that's really dumb and Imp. Evasion really isn't that great anyway, but them's the rules.  He probably legitimately was mistaken there, as I got tripped up by that recently myself, it's a really illogical RAW thing.What was his point buy / stats?  Monk is atrociously multiple ability dependent, and the only way he has AC 23 at level 6 even with god stats is the mage armor spell, quite frankly.  So his "crazy" AC is one dispel away from being garbage.Next: Grapple in PF was heavily nerfed.  Being grappled no longer means you lose dex to AC.  You CAN be flanked, but grapple's just keeping you from moving out of flank in that case.  Even if it was following 3.5 grapple rules, sap adept/master STILL would not work because being grappled caused you to lose dex to AC, NOT be flatfooted.  Again, "flatfooted" is a very specific case of "lose dex to AC" that is rare and hard to come by.  This is another reason I'm trying to assure you, his feat chain really isn't that scary.  The only way to reliably have flatfooted foes every round in PF involves the Shatter Defenses feat.  Which at BAB +6 and his multiclassing, he won't have for a long while.  Not to mention that's another 3 feats (Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, and SD) and if you want to use it without wasting actions on intimidate every other round, yet another feat on Enforcer.  Did I mention his build is crazy feat intensive yet?I'm not sure on the interaction of Sap Master and Sap Adept, but I believe the intent was that Sap Master does not double the +2's from Sap Adept.I also don't get how he's flurrying on the first round reliably.  If he waits for a foe to move up to him, the foe isn't flatfooted, unless it happens to come near where he's hidden, when such a scenario is even possible.  If he's getting a lot of surprise rounds for being sneaky, in order to flurry he needs to move into melee which either means sacrificing a sneak attack or using a partial charge and taking an AC penalty before knowing if he's gonna get to act in the first round before the foe he's just pissed off.In conclusion: He's blowing a TON of feats and relying on very high ability scores in order to do moderate damage under very specific conditions while sporting decent AC and I'm guessing utterly terrible hp.  He is absolutely not overpowered, and the methods the DM has to screw with him are legion.Let's look at a sample level 6 Human Fighter.  He starts off with 15-16 str and +2 racial, plus his level 4 point goes there.  Relevant magic items here will be a +1 greatsword (note your "OP" player needs a grossly overpriced Amulet of Mighty Fists or to beg the spellcasters for a buff to match this), +1 full plate (yeah, it slows him down right now, next level it won't), and str +2.  None of the other items matter for this comparison.The Fighter thus has Str 20-21 (+5), Weapon Training I, and Armor Training I.  The only feats I'm factoring into this will be Weapon Focus, Weapon Specializion, and Power Attack (which he uses all the time, cause...it's good).  His other feats can be whatever.  Assuming he has at least a 14 dex to maximize his AC...AC: 10 + 10 armor +2 dex = 22Attack: Greatsword +12/+7 (2d6 +17 damage, 19-20/x2)Average damage per swing: 24**It's also important to note, ALL of that damage doubles on a crit, which this fighter threatens twice as often as the monk/rogue, and for whom all that SA damage would NOT be multipliedHow does your monk/rogue's attack and damage, under absolutely optimal conditions, compare?  This isn't even utlizing all the tools the fighter has at his disposal and is limited to stuff a PF newbie who's only spent an hour skimming the book would likely pick.  If your pal's "optimized" build can't crush those numbers, color me unimpressed.</blockquote>

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