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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 873918" data-attributes="member: 3051">Originally posted by hong Prerequisites can balance (almost) anything, is pretty much my philosophy. That is, there's nothing wrong with a powerful PrC that also requires lots of feats and other things.Well, personally, I prefer the other way: PrCs should have fairly easy requirements to enter but have some sort of ongoing cost, whether it's a smaller HD, lower BAB, incomplete spellcasting progression, or whatever.Although Move Silently probably should actually be a class skill, given that one of the abilities gives a bonus.Makes sense, as long as you don't give Hide also.  H/MS is probably the most useful 2-skill combo in the game, so giving only half of it isn't unbalanced.Well, sure. That's what Weapon Finesse does in 3.5E.Didn't know that.  I'm glad they're making that change, it's one that we house-ruled long ago IMC, but I was looking at the class balance vs 3E.Admittedly, Finesse in every weapon is like Martial Proficiency in every weapon: not really that much more useful than having it be only for one weapon.Well, it's always possible that someone else out there will be getting +10 to Listen, from an item if nothing else.The proliferation of and balance issues with cheap +skill magic items is a separate thread.  I'm one of those people who considers them to be horribly underpriced, and I'd never let the players get an item that adds more than +10 to a skill, and even those will be rare.The cloud warrior is an example of a PrC that attempts to provide a richer list of innate powers, rather than relying on magic items for everything.Fine, but you're not removing their ability to wear those items as well, are you?  Get +10 to Move Silently, buy a Cloak of Elvenkind, and you can now do the Hide/Move Silently combo without ever spending a skill point.Tumble and evasion only work with light armour/encumbrance anyway, and the monk AC bonus requires no armour.True, and there's also Armor Check Penalty issues.  But that was one of my concerns: a Full Plate-wearing tank could take this class and use the massive skill bonuses to make many of the penalties of heavy armor meaningless.  Who cares about losing 6 or 7 from a skill if you get a +30 boost?Not that I'm saying +30 skill bonuses are harebrained. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> In this particular case, I don't think the skills in question are that broken; certainly not Jump or Balance. Who needs +30 Jump (which you can get at 1st level from the jump spell) when everyone has winged boots? Well, assuming everyone has a very specific slotted magic item is probably a bad idea.  After all, would you rather have Winged Boots, Boots of Speed, or Boots of Springing and Striding?  And like I mentioned before, if you're giving the Winged Boots bonus to someone, they can now use that slot to wear the Boots of Speed instead, so you've effectively given them a free slotless item.Tumble is the most useful skill out of this lot, as far as I see. +30 may be on the high side, depending on what uses the DM allows for it, but I still wouldn't necessarily call it broken. It's not so much about the exact size of the bonus.  It's just, WHY are you giving that bonus?  Let's look at the skills in question:Tumble, Climb, and Balance (you didn't give a bonus to this one, but since you're requiring 10 ranks of it and DON'T require ranks of Climb, I felt like adding it) have set DCs that max out in the 25-35 range.  With Take 10 and 10 ranks, even a +10 bonus gives automatic success.Jump: There's no set DC or anything, but you can't Jump farther than you can move.  For a running jump, if you have no STR bonus and 10 ranks and Take 10, a +20 bonus means +35 feet, but you can't move that far without taking a double move.  You also can't jump further than 6*height, so that's a pretty hard maximum.  For standing jumps, the maximum drops faster, so you'll never get much use out of anything beyond +20.Move Silently: Here's the problem.  Opposed skill rolls benefit the most from skill boosts; against an evenly-matched opponent a +5 bonus swings the outcome from 47.5% win, 5% tie, 47.5% lose to 70% win, 3.75% tie, 26.25% lose (and if you Take 10, it's 70%/5%/25%).  So, giving even a +10 bonus isn't just an almost-automatic success, it's causing the skill ranks the enemy spends on Listen to be worthless.I think you should change the required skills for the class to include all five skills I mentioned, lowering the requirement to, say, 5 or 6 ranks.  10-rank requirements are fine for Rogue-type classes, but for something intended for the 2/4+INT skill point crowd?  The Feat requirements will stop people from taking it at level 3 or something.Personally, I'd make "Acrobatics" be that incremental sort of ability I mentioned, where the bonus equals your class level.  If you want, tough, you could do it like Favored Enemy; that is, at levels 2, 4, 7, and 10 you pick one of the five skills at a +5 bonus, and each one previously picked would increase by +5.  So, a level 10 Cloud Warrior could be +20 Move Silently, +15 Tumble, +10 Jump, +5 Balance.</blockquote>

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