PrC Critiquing.

[Sekhmet]

A player of mine is one of those guys who tries to put strange race/class combinations together, and altogether plays very gimmicky or OP characters. He can never seem to play "LG Human Fighter", if you know what I'm saying.

Anyway, his latest idea is this Blood King - D&D Wiki .

As you can see, it's a full casting, full melee, super vampire in 10 levels; he basically just combined Duskblade with the old version of Blood Knight he saw on D&D Wiki into one class.
As his DM, I don't want to tell him that he needs to just scrap it and come up with something less OP.

Help me critique it a bit. I've already had some changes made, and it is overall weaker than it was before.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's way too strong still. I'm wary of any custom stuff on those wiki sites, I've seen alot of questionably balanced classes and feats.

First of all, make it a d4 HD class. When you actually go undead at level 10, all former and future HD will turn into d12s anyway and you'll lose con to hit points. That's the rules for undead, and a heck of a lot less confusing that the current set up. The current setup giving d12s AND con to hp right from 1st level is also ridiculously freaking broken. Get rid of the unique rules about death and dying. Just follow actual vampre/undead rules.

Undead are poor BAB, arcane casters are poor BAB (generally). I see no flavor reason why this class should be full BAB. Ditto for saves. Undead and wiz/sorc both have only good will saves. In fact, undead have HORRIBLE fort saves, when you consider poor base fort and the no con mod. Undead are just immune to many fort save spells. If you want to gradually grant him abilities of the undead until total transformation at level 10, that's fine. Look at Elemental Savant, which gradually turns you into an Elemental, for guidance. But there is no reason for good fort saves.

Skills: 6 + Int mod?!!!! Are you ing kidding me?! No comment here, just face palm.

Spell advancement: I actually wouldn't mind seeing this boosted to 7/10, 8/10, or even 9/10 progression if the insane BAB, HD, skills, etc... got drastically toned down to where they should logically be for a caster.

 

[Dandu]

As the Lightening Warrior showed us, it's ok as long as he doesn't have a familiar.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

I personally would dissallow totally homebrew classes made by my own players, but I might be willing to look into any published works, even Dragon.

As for LG Human Fighter....I dont KNOW who would want to play LG Human Fighter either, but thats just my opinion.

I dont know what it is, with people sometimes-wanting these characters with as much spellcasting as well as melee as the best of them. Let him try out Hexblade, Duskblade (as you brought up) or maybe some Blade Magic if it doesnt clash with the other parties classes. (Or he could try building a CoDzilla if you allow that)


What is the rest of the party anyway? What does the party 'need'?

A player of mine is one of those guys who tries to put strange race/class combinations together, and altogether plays very gimmicky or OP characters. He can never seem to play "LG Human Fighter", if you know what I'm saying.

Anyway, his latest idea is this Blood King - D&D Wiki .

As you can see, it's a full casting, full melee, super vampire in 10 levels; he basically just combined Duskblade with the old version of Blood Knight he saw on D&D Wiki into one class.
As his DM, I don't want to tell him that he needs to just scrap it and come up with something less OP.

Help me critique it a bit. I've already had some changes made, and it is overall weaker than it was before.

 

[Orius]

A player of mine is one of those guys who tries to put strange race/class combinations together, and altogether plays very gimmicky or OP characters. He can never seem to play "LG Human Fighter", if you know what I'm saying.

Anyway, his latest idea is this Blood King - D&D Wiki .

Holy crap!!!

d12 hp, Fighter BAB, two good saves (Why not three on top of everything else?!), 6 skill points/level, class skills include just about every useful combat/adventuring skill not to mention stealth on what is ostensibly a fighter/arcane caster build (and why does a caster-based class need Use Magic Device?!), deliver touch spells through melee attacks, arcane casting without penalty in light armor, upgraded to medium if the character already overcomes the penalty in light armor, get both an evil version of the paladin's mount AND a familiar, and you get to be a vampire but with some of the limitations removed. And to top it all off, we get an epic level progression. Amusingly enough, there is absolutely no descriptive text whatsoever.

Yeah, it's a bit too powerful. No forget that, it's too freakin' powerful. I'm surprised there's no divine spells on it, or command undead, unless you removed it already.

As his DM, I don't want to tell him that he needs to just scrap it and come up with something less OP.

This is way way too powerful. You really do need to put your foot down because you obviously realize this is unbalanced and broken.

My recommendations:

HD: d6. Very little beyond dragons or barbarians should get d12 hp, IMO, and this isn't one of those things. Stream suggests d4, but you don't need to pull it down that far. It's a martial/arcane hybrid, so in between d4 and d10 is good. Eldritch knight goes d6, and that seems like a good match. Also, I can be a bit petty, so I'd deliberately lowball it to d6 simply because he had the gall to suggest something so overpowered. Like Stream said, he'll be upgraded to d12 at level 10, so he can look forward to it.

Cleric BAB. Again, martial/arcane hybrid, so take the BAB that averages the two.

I agree with Stream, good Will save only. He won't need Fort as undead. Really, when you come right down to it, the only thing undead really get to their favor is the d12 HD, because otherwise they have lousy saves, bonus to Will saves is kind of pointless when they're immune to mind-affecting stuff anyway.

Fighters get 2 skill points/level, wizards or sorcerers get 2 skill points/level. This guy should get 2 skill points/level, period. Really, 6 + Int/level is ridiculous. I wouldn't be surprised if he's planning to make this build with a wizard, in which case he'll get plenty of bonus skill points from Int (18 Int no doubt) already. Don't let him dump 3 or 4 more points per level on top of an overly generous 6. Then, trim the skill list. He does not need stealth, the class is not built on a stealth class, he probably wants to take full advantage of the vampire's +8 bonus to those skills. Ditto for Gather Information; there's no reason for this class to have it. Get rid of Decipher Script, he's got arcane spells, let him rely on comprehend languages. Dump Swim from the list, vampires have an aversion to ruinning water. Finally dump Use Magic Device, as an arcane caster, he'll already be able use arcane scrolls and wands and such, don't give him the ability to use divine ones (possibly the reasoning behind this). Don't give him the ability to activate magic items evil creatures can't use without penalty.

Keep the spell advancement the way it is.

Dump the mount. That's just another unwarranted goody, particularly since he chose a black unicorn (*nitpick* and besides, only females can ride them yet he's using male pronouns for the PrC). He already has the undead familiar thing (which should be bumped up several levels), and since the class requires a base class that has familiars, he'll probably start with one.

Make sure that the character gets *ALL* the weaknesses of a vampire at level 10. So no crossing the running water, hates garlic, recoils from mirrors and holy symbols. There's also this interesting little line: "They are utterly unable to enter a home or other building unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so." you could rule that maybe he can't enter a dungeon and has to tool around outside. You don't even need to inform him of that beforehand; just make sure he understands he has ALL the vampire's weaknesses and let him come to the conclusion that you could creatively enforce the rules and not let him into dungeons under certain circumstances. Also dump that stuff about the cohort and coven going out of their way to make sure he resurrects, vampires are evil after all and do not need to be that loyal. That's just another too-good advantage, ensuring that his character gets rezzed, should he get killed, and rezzed without penalty no less.

Anyway, that should make a good start at bringing the PrC down to reasonable levels.

Or you could do it the easy way and simply forbid evil characters in the campaign.

This is on a wiki, so I am kind of tempted to...edit. I don't really have the time to waste on it right now.

 

[Sorrowdusk]

Holy crap!!!

Dump the mount. That's just another unwarranted goody, particularly since he chose a black unicorn (*nitpick* and besides, only females can ride them yet he's using male pronouns for the PrC). He already has the undead familiar thing (which should be bumped up several levels), and since the class requires a base class that has familiars, he'll probably start with one.

I thought it was just pure/virgins. Or do you come from the days of female dark elf cavaliers on unicorns dual wielding lances?

Anyway, that should make a good start at bringing the PrC down to reasonable levels.

Or you could do it the easy way and simply forbid evil characters in the campaign.

BAH! That dont make things any easier, a homebrew PrC could be just as broke and he could be some holier than thou type character.

 

[Sekhmet]

Lots of great ideas here, and logical reasons for them, too. I'll have a chance to sit down with him and work it out to a more reasonable level a bit easier now.

I generally encourage each player to come up with flavour of their own to enhance their experience and feel like they are a little unique in the world, but it can lead to them wanting too much, too quickly.
My general rule of thumb is that if I can't "beat" the class without having to be a Wiz/Sorc/Drd/Clr, it's too much (and if it can't be beaten with those four, it's just right out.)

Thanks for the help with this, more updates will be coming in the next few days to reign it in, as well as filling in the fluff text (he's already explained the fluff to me, he just hasn't gotten around to writing it down yet). I'm adverse to pulling the vampiric weaknesses back into the class, but may have to, if I can't figure my way around it. Even Vampire Lords get a -4 to stats in direct sunlight.

 

[Orius]

I thought it was just pure/virgins. Or do you come from the days of female dark elf cavaliers on unicorns dual wielding lances?

Black unicorns are a FR monster. They don't just differ from normal unicorns in the color of their coat, they're CE and they have the ability to deliver harmful spells with their horns. They only allow evil female humans, and yes, drow riders. In any case, I'm sure this player is probably conveniently overlooking the female only aspect of the monster. That or he maybe made up his own concept of a black unicorn as some kind of evil coolness for the character. In the case of the latter, I would insist upon female riders only as the black unicorn is an evil counterpart of the normal one.

BAH! That dont make things any easier, a homebrew PrC could be just as broke and he could be some holier than thou type character.

Good point, and there's always Vow of Poverty.

I'm adverse to pulling the vampiric weaknesses back into the class, but may have to, if I can't figure my way around it. Even Vampire Lords get a -4 to stats in direct sunlight.

Do it. If he wants to play a character that becomes a vampire, then he plays the vampire all the way. That includes penalties.

 

[Wyvernhand]

Good point, and there's always Vow of Poverty.

You say that like VoP is good...I'm confused. Are we talking about the same feat?

And yea, some homebrew stuff is good, but a lot of it it pure crap. If you want to see some good homebrew, check out GiantitP, particularly stuff by Fax Celestis, ErrantX, Eldariel, DementedOne, and Krim Blackleaf. Also, the Legacy of Battle crew with their efforts have more than quadurpled the number of ToB style disciplines available, including disciplines that make S&B, TWF, ranged, and other sub-par combat styles pretty decent.

Probably 90% of the stuff on danddwiki is poorly thought out, poorly proof-read, poorly playtested (if at all), and just plain poor. Avoid that website like the flesheating plague it is.

 

[Sekhmet]

You say that like VoP is good...I'm confused. Are we talking about the same feat?

He's saying that VoP tends to create holier-than-thou types.

Probably 90% of the stuff on danddwiki is poorly thought out, poorly proof-read, poorly playtested (if at all), and just plain poor. Avoid that website like the flesheating plague it is.

I do, he's just decided to create the class there, so he doesn't have to drive to come and hand me a copy everytime there is a change.