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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mkletch" data-source="post: 398017" data-attributes="member: 3396">If a 16th or 17th level character does not have a couple +6 ability items (one to focus on the class, andother to plug holes in saves), and a +5 cloak of resistance, you are in trouble anyway.  My character is 19th level total now, with F/R/W bonuses of +21/+30/+18.  A +2 bonus to Will would not really matter.Uh, every arrow fired is +5 (and keen with 2 levels of deepwood sniper).  That's a +5 to hit, and damage, plus bow.  Yes, you could have GMW, but we're talking about a standalone character, not a party composition.  Sometimes, it does come down to what the character can do all by his/her lonesome.  If you are greater dispelled, or Mordy disjoined you are in a massive world of hurt.  I'm assuming the cleric is busy doing his own thing during this mess, and can't take time to babysit the archer that now cannot damage the target with DR 25/+3.  Every time I shoot an arrow, it is a virtual 1000gp that really only cost me 2cp becasue of that ability.  And it can get better after 21st level, unlike GMW.  Not sure if we'll do any epic adventuring, but I want my bases covered.  Every +6 arrow would be 7200gp!  I'll shoot nine in a typical round.Flip through the MM or SRD.  How many outsiders can cast dispel magic or greater dispelling at will?  Most of the ones that matter to a 16th+ level character.  Bad news for GMW, especially if there are multiple opponents doing targeted and area dispels.  Oh, and dragons with many levels of sorcerer will certainly have some method of dispelling.  An archer without magical arrows is a non-entity in 3E, at any level above 3rd.  I did not get AA until 7th (the quickest you can), and it was rough in a few spots.Only a single level in wizard, 6 in fighter.  You can help yourself alot with mirror image, displacement, +Con items/spells, etc.  It rarely comes down to a question of raw hit points.  Trading one hit for five, plus a multishot with a haste action is fine.  Any character that gets swarmed is in serious trouble anyway.Rapid shot is the bread and butter of any archer.  It is statistically better than a regular attack in every case except when you need to roll an 18 to hit (regular is better), or if you need a 17 or 19 to hit (no difference).  Seeker and phase arrows ignore concealment, cover and, for the phase, armor.  The key is that they can be done with a haste action to supplement the rapid shot, or after moving.  The banked shot denies you both the flexibility of haste/rapid shot or the ability to move after firing if you are not hasted.It all comes down to flexibility.  Other than superior focus/spec, which are dubious compared to enchant arrow, all of the OoBI abilities deny you flexibility.  Sneak and free shot depend on specific (and possibly rare at high level) situations, banked shot is barely useful and nails you to one spot.  GMW depends on other characters that may or may not be able to help you and monsters that are willing to let you keep it.  Only close combat shot is truly useful all by itself.  I considered taking two levels of OoBI, but figured the second level in DWS and level 10 in AA were more useful.  I'll just take Combat Archery at 21st or 24th level.If I had ten levels of OoBI instead of 10 levels of AA, I and my party members would have died many, many times.  We have had some deaths anyway, but none from AoOs.  Three characters doing the adventure path modules from WotC is kind of tight.  OoBI would certainly not have gotten us as far.  Not burning a level on wizard (diviner, actually) would have been nice, but the +1 BAB only delayed my gaining extra attacks by one level.And to nip another fiber on this thread, the Forsaker is irrelevant, because his/her damage reduction would not allow attacks with a bow to penetrate opponents' DR.  Your damage reduction lets you bypass opponents' DR only with your natural attacks.  Yes, the forsaker has a tweak on that, allowing the character's weapon to be considered a natural attack. But the arrow is not the weapon, the bow is.  The ammunition must carry the enhancement bonus to penetrate DR.  Forsakers do not extend their natural weapons to ammunition, only their weapons.  A subtle but important distinction.-Fletch!</blockquote>

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