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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rackhir" data-source="post: 398148" data-attributes="member: 149">Even with a cloak of resistance +5 you've got to have some pretty obscenely high stats to hit those kind of saves. I calculate the saves from your classes at +12/+12/+7, with the cloak that means you've got a 18 con (after a -2 Con penalty), 36 dex? and 20 wis. Now I'm sure that you have some stat bonus items, (probably 2-4 +6 Items I'm guessing), but some how I don't think this character was done with a point buy... With that kind of wisdom, why you wouldn't want the OoBI Zen Archery bonus is beyond me.This is a thread about the merits of a class, not the "Sultan's of Smack", Characters do not generally in a D&D game exist in a vacume and if you crock the conditions enough you can always construct a situation where one class or another is useless. Mages or Clerics suck compared to fighters, if you assume they are an anti-magic field. I don't know of anyone who would claim that was the case outside of one. In anycase, you're assuming that an OoBI archer who's hit 19th level HASN'T bothered to obtain some method of getting GMW on a daily basis? A GMW/Quiver of Elhona is something I'd figure any archer type character would have obtained by that point. So a simple 3rd level spell trumps half the abilities that the AA gets, while the OoBI at least has the sneak attack damage of 5d6 PER Arrow, which with the proper items (ring of blink or imp invis, if we are assuming the resources available to a 19th lv character) can be done pretty much at will. Yes GMW can be dispelled and that is an edge that the AA's have over the OoBI, but it's a small edge and a 19th lv char is going to have ways around that either with a stock of magic arrows for just that sort of circumstances (+3 will handle 90% of non epic DR) or by simply recasting GMW. Any high level character hit by a Mordakain's Disjuction is going to be hurting period. It destroys MAGIC ITEMS.DR in monsters is not common in any case until well after the characters hit 7th level, unless your DM is buffing the modules, I'm fairly certain that aside from a succubus in Forge (not an encounter you're supposed to fight), there are no creatures with DR until you hit Speaker in Dreams, which I think is a minimum of 6-7th IIRC. So I don't know why you are claming an archer without + arrows is a non-entitiy above 3rd.Oh, no doubt a level in wizard can come in handy, with those spells, though frankly I'd concentrate more on Shield and True Strike. But I also recall from my previous campaign that the AA often spent several rounds buffing herself with combat duration spells rather than shooting at things.Seeker arrow and phase arrow are also both only 1/day as is Storm of Arrows, rather limiting their usefulness even if they are easier to use than banked shot. The ability to use each of those just once mean that if you have to use them, they aren't that useful, because one shot isn't going to be taking down your opponents at those levels.You clearly have an unusual and quite perilous situation. The 4 character "typical" party always struck me as only barely sufficient to cover the basics (mage, cleric, fighter, rogue). Also from your comments about the unavailabilty of GMW from your teammates, sounds like your inter-party cooperation could use some improvement. Perhaps OoBI would not be as well suited to your party, but that hardly makes it useless and ineffective. I have run in a campaign with AA and OoBI characters for a year and a half, so I feel I can make my assertions with some confidence. The AA and my OoBI were always more or less running neck and neck for effectiveness, with my OoBI generally having somewhat of an edge.</blockquote>

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