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Message: <blockquote data-quote="seasong" data-source="post: 833570" data-attributes="member: 5137">Wow... months later, more responses! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />.No worries <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. I have some quibbles with your quibbles, so I think we're even <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />.Well, for starters, it's not an entrance, but a portal <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. In system terms, that's meaningful - you can enter or access the plane of shadow from anywhere, magically, but a permanent portal that allows anyone to walk through without extra magic only exists in special places.Shadow spells work anywhere; so does this prestige class. Portals only work in the place the portal is opened; hence the cave.Of course, there was always the intimation that other portals may exist (the Order of Shadow believes they have the only one, of course), and someone else could concievably create a new prestige class built on travelling to shadow by a route other than a portal. Or, for your campaign, you could make it a more personal PrC (rather than organization-based), and simply state that a character must have the prereqs and then find some way into shadow... which could be the portal I describe, or as simple as hiring a high level wizard.You are correct; the first test is not as thematic as the rest of it. I'll see what I can do to think up some better testing procedures <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.Well, the whole point is to not swallow.. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Almost all of your objections to the swimming seem to stem from three fundamental things:1) You want me to write complete rules for the test, including a whole new set of rules for swimming, exact depths, etc. In short, you want a location encounter written up for your campaign, with all of the specific details that entails, as opposed to some flavor text. If I write up a 32 page version of the shadowdancer for publishing, sure, I'll do that. I'll even throw in some variant Orders, tests, etc. for different kinds of Orders of Shadow, a variant PrC for "loner" shadowdancers, and a bunch of new magic items and illusion spells they have access to.Also note: I wrote this with the core rules in mind. I did not write it with house rules for bends or oxygen narcosis in mind! D&D is a world where teleporting from the center of the earth to the surface of the earth does not cause your ear drums to shatter. A world where the elemental plane of fire does not ruin your sword edges. A world where people heal from even the most grievous injuries in a maximum of 10 days.I think we can safely assume that human biology is sufficiently different that we can ignore the real world effects of the bends and nitrogen narcosis.2) I wrote this to be adaptable to your specific campaign. That means I left some things undefined, because defining them would cut out a variety of campaign styles. An evil cult Order of Shadow would likely have an immensely harsh swim test, diving hundreds of feet and giving nightmares for years; a casual group of elite thieves might have a depth of 50 ft and take the initiate out for beers afterward, a mere hazing ritual. The default isn't very dangerous, but I left the specifics of how dangerous it is up to you. Apparently, "up to you" translates to "impossible" in your mind <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.3) The default test is not very dangerous, but you think it is incredibly dangerous. Part of this is because you are using house rules, wherein I am not; I can't help you there <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. Part of this is because I wrote this from the perspective of seemingly "impossible" tests... a long and grand tradition in secret fraternities. I generally assumed that my readers would be familiar with that sort of idea, so I didn't elaborate much.I'll correct that when I correct the first test, which you correctly pointed out is not very flavorful.A few things I haven't covered above:Sure it does. Per the text:"tell her that she must go down the hole, find her way to the chamber, and retrieve a smooth, opal sphere from there.""To most initiates, it looks like a complicated way to voluntarily wear concrete boots.""there is a shadowdancer spell caster in the cavern below who will help the initiate once they make it all the way down"It should look impossible to the character. In practice, it's straight down with a rock, then being guided by the shadowdancer.Sure you do. You're just expecting me to tell you how to run your Order of Shadow <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. I have suggestions, of course, and those are in the text."Down, down it goes, into narrow, tiny caverns that twist away from the faint light trickling from above. And then, a trapped pocket of air in a fortuitous turn opens into a tiny lake. Here, no light exists, nor can it. The back of the cavern disappears into deepest black."As for how far you have to move, that is up to you. I suggest tailoring it to the abilities of your PCs.I agree. And the mechanics of this class work decently for that. However, I based the flavor text here on the mechanics in the DMG, since the flavor text is not Open. And the mechanics of the PrC in the DMG do not indicate a Gypsy feel at all, except in the inclusion of Perform and a 1/day Silent Image. The rest of it does not look like a gypsy at all <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.That hypothetical 32 pager, of course, would include a gypsy variant, a King's Spies variant, and a Shadow Walker variant <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />. I'm not going to write it, but I'll fantasize about it for a bit <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.</blockquote>

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