PrC: Theurgist. Seeking feedback.

fuindordm

Adventurer
Some of Lorien's priests devote themselves to the study of magic in all its forms, seeking enlightenment in the unification of arcane and divine traditions. These priests are known as theurgists, and command powerful magic from both schools. (Note: this class is intentionally
designed to be dependent on a deity of magic; Wee Jas or Mystra would do as well.)

Theurgists adventure as much as any other priest or mage, and for similar reasons. The answers to their questions are often not found in temple libraries, although tantalizing clues to long-lost documents may be. Like the loremaster, the theurgist values knowledge over all other rewards, but their research is more directed.

The theurgist's principle advantage is access to high level divine and arcane spells. Theurgists are essentially a specialization of the cleric class, representing a priestly character who has made a deep study of all forms of magic. When entering this prestige class, they get a third domain that may be filled with the arcane spells that they have researched. Cleric/wizard characters or druid/wizard characters will get the most benefit from this prestige class, since a high intelligence will enhance some of their special abilities.

Requirements

Feats: Any one metamagic feat, and any one item creation feat.
Skills: Knowledge: Arcana (8), Knowledge: Religion (8).
Spells: Ability to cast 3rd level divine and arcane spells.
Domain: Magic
Hit Die: 1d4
Skill Points: 4 + Int modifier

Class Skills: Alchemy (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge: all (Int), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Speak Language, Use Magic Device (Cha)

Level Attack Fort Refl Will Special
1 +0 +0 +0 +2 Theurgy Domain
2 +1 +0 +0 +3 Epiphany 4
3 +1 +1 +1 +3 Unity
4 +2 +1 +1 +4 Epiphany 5
5 +2 +1 +1 +4 Enhanced Magic Domain
6 +3 +2 +2 +5 Epiphany 6
7 +3 +2 +2 +5 Unity
8 +4 +2 +2 +6 Epiphany 7
9 +4 +3 +3 +6 Arcane Mastery
10 +5 +3 +3 +7 Epiphany 8
11 +5 +3 +3 +7 Unity
12 +6/+1 +4 +4 +8 Epiphany 9

Class Features

Spellcasting: Every level, the theurgist gains +1 spellcasting level in their divine class only. Thus, a Wiz5/Clr5/Theurgist 10 has spells per day as a Wiz5/Clr15. The theurgist does not gain any other benefits other than improved spell levels, casting level, and spells per day. Scaling domain abilities, undead turning, and other such benefits do not improve by taking a theurgist level.

Note: a theurgist's "arcane tradition" refers to any arcane spellcasting class for which the character has access to third level spells. If the character for some reason has more than one qualifying arcane tradition, they may choose which class to apply the benefits to at each level.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: none

Theurgy Domain: At first level the theurgist gets a third domain, which will eventually be filled with arcane spells of their choosing. At first level the theurgist may choose three previously unknown spells from their arcane tradition's spell list to fill the first three slots of this domain. These spells count as divine spells when cast, just as any other clerical domain spell. The theurgy domain does not have a granted power.

The theurgist must have a high enough intelligence (or charisma) to learn the spells in this domain as if they were arcane spells. For example, a sorcerer/cleric/theurgist with a charisma of 15 could only fill the slots in their theurgy domain with arcane spells up to 5th level. A successful spellcraft check must also be made to learn and add the desired spell, with a DC of 10+spell level. If the theurgist fails this check, they leave a domain slot unfilled and try to add the spell again at their next level.

Enhanced Magic Domain: The theurgist may cast any spell in the Magic domain spontaneously, as if it were a healing spell.

Epiphany: The theurgist, through extensive research, has learned to cast an arcane spell as if it were a divine spell. Choose a new spell from the character's arcane tradition of the indicated level or lower, and add it to the corresponding slot in the theurgy domain.

Unity: Choose a number of arcane spells that the character already knows equal to their Int bonus. They can now be cast at the character's divine caster level.

Arcane Mastery: The theurgist's understanding of magic has become so profound that they can cast arcane spells almost as easily as divine spells. While the number of spells available to the theurgist per day does not increase (except for this level's usual improvement to spellcasting), the character can now prepare up to one theurgy domain spell per level in a normal spell slot as well as a domain spell slot.


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Analysis: I don't want to compare this class to a Wiz10/Clr10, since there is almost universal agreement that such a character is much less effective than a Wiz20 or Clr20. Rather, I want to compare the end result of this class to a specialized spellcaster; I am looking for a cleric/wizard archetype that is competitive with but not superior to a 20th level Wizard, Cleric, Sorcerer, or Druid.

Of course, balancing prestige classes against wizards is always tricky because they lose so little. But I think this class stacks up well against the Clr15/Wiz5; less powerful overall,
but very flexible.

The reason this class can be effective where the Wiz10/Clr10 is not is simply that their key spells can reach a casting level of 15 rather than a casting level of 10.

I'd greatly appreciate any feedback and comments you all might have.

Thanks!
--Ben Mathiesen
 
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This is a very powerful class. I think that the +1 spell level for ervery level is really too much if you wish to keep all these abilities.
 

If you have MOTW, you might want to look at the Geomancer. It does the same thing, and it would work if you just removed drift from the abilities (although now it looks more powerful than this.)

I'm uneasy about the stacking abailities fro saves, otherwise it's pretty well done. Its not overpowered, they've lost 9th lvl spells.
 

Keep in mind that you're ending up with a character who can potentially cast both Resurrection and Prismatic Spray, something none of the combos you looked at can do. The closest thing would be a shugenja from OA, but a shugenja can never have lots of healing and lots of firepower in his spell list; if he wants lots of one he has to pretty much give up the other.

I like the idea a lot here, but I am concerned about the power level. Say you get in to this class as a 5th level cleric; you take it all the way up (why not, right?). Your epiphanies are likely to be for spells of the following levels: 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.

So you could cast stoneskin just before you buff up with cleric spells, then toss out a cone of cold or three against your enemies, follow up with a chain lightning, nuke whatever's still around with a DB fireball and run away from anything that survived long enough to cast a prismatic wall. So you can cast heal on yourself, be fine, and go lay down a ton of magic missiles. All without spell failure in your full plate armor.

Well, you see my point. Maybe keep arcane spell failure for the spells they add to their list or something? Or less than a full caster level every level. Or something....
 

Thanks for the comments. It's true that I haven't thought too hard about possible synergies between divine and arcane spells (different kinds of bonus stacking, etc.), and that this needs looking into. Does anyone out there really think, however, that this class is intrinsically more powerful that a Cleric 20 or a Cleric15/Wiz5?

When 3e came out I was shocked at how much powerful divine magic had become. I always thought that the wizards were supposed to have the most powerful magic around, but suddenly we had cleric and druid spells going up to 9th level. Even more startling was the pillaging of wizard spells to fill out domain lists. Spells that I once would have thought were untouchable, like power word:kill and prismatic sphere, suddenly became available to high-level clerics.

I've since come around. In a world where gods are powerful and grant magic to their priests, it makes good sense that divine magic and arcane magic are equally strong. And why shouldn't a god be able to grant any spell they know to their followers? We already have a rule set where many of the staple high-level wizard spells are no longer exclusive. Look at the domain spells:

Air gets Chain Lightning
Animal gets Shapechange
Death gets Wail of the Banshee
Destruction gets Disintegrate
Earth gets Stoneskin, Iron Body
Fire gets Wall of Fire, Incendiary Cloud
Law gets Hold Monster
Luck gets Spell Turning, as does Magic
Protection gets Repulsion, Prismatic Sphere
Strength gets Stoneskin, Bigby's Hands
Sun gets Prismatic Sphere
Travel gets Teleport wt Error
Trickery gets Polymorph any Object, Time Stop
War gets all the Power Words
Water gets Ice Storm, Cone of Cold, Acid Fog, and Horrid Wilting

See my point? Given such a wide variety of
extremely potent offensive and defensive spells available to clerics (even good clerics can get power word Kill!), is it unreasonable to let a Theurgist pick five of their favorites? Would it be more balanced to let them pick five, but only from the list of domain spells above? Jester, notice that three of the five spells you mentioned are already domain spells; a priest with Air and Strength domains (e.g. of Thor) could pretty much do that already. The main difference between such a cleric and the corresponding theurgist is that the theugist has the option of preparing multiple Chain Lightnings and Cones of Cold, which is, I admit, a serious issue.

I welcome debate on this issue--I just started thinking about this myself and want to hear other perspectives.

Also, Happiest mentioned that stacking Int and Wis bonuses for DC's is potentially very powerful. I realize this and was looking for one "big ticket" special ability at 9th or 10th level like other prestige classes often possess. Any other ideas for something cool and less vulnerable to abuse?

Thanks,
Ben
 


I really like the idea overall but remain concerned about balance as is. Your point about domain spells is a good one, as is the point that you can fill up multiple slots with them through this prc. Which inspired me to this idea:

How about the theurgist gets to build a custom domain of arcane spells? A prestige "theurgy" domain, and maybe at 9th or 10th (big payoff) gets to switch out one spell slot of each level from a standard slot to a domain slot? So a wiz5/clr5/theurgist10, casting as a 15th-level cleric, has a spell progression like this:
6 4+2 4+2 4+2 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+2 +2

Hm... this has the interesting side affect of making the theurgist specialize in his domains, because his highest level spells might ALL be domain spells. I dunno, interesting idea... not sure if it fits your concept necessarily, but I might have to use it for something sometime....

[edited b/c of a slipped finger]
 
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the Jester said:
I really like the idea overall but remain concerned about balance as is. Your point about domain spells is a good one, as is the point that you can fill up multiple slots with them through this prc. Which inspired me to this idea:

How about the theurgist gets to build a custom domain of arcane spells? A prestige "theurgy" domain, and maybe at 9th or 10th (big payoff) gets to switch out one spell slot of each level from a standard slot to a domain slot? So a wiz5/clr5/theurgist10, casting as a 15th-level cleric, has a spell progression like this:
6 4+2 4+2 4+2 3+2 3+2 2+2 1+2 +2

Hm... this has the interesting side affect of making the theurgist specialize in his domains, because his highest level spells might ALL be domain spells. I dunno, interesting idea... not sure if it fits your concept necessarily, but I might have to use it for something sometime....

[edited b/c of a slipped finger]

Giving them a specialized domain is a really good idea. Maybe give them one standard domain slot per level and one "arcane" domain slot per level?
Hmmm... also, if I limit the number of arcane spells per day they can throw around I might be able to give them a slight boost in some other area, like more skill points. I'll ponder this and work up a newer version soon... feedback still welcome, of course.

--Ben
 

I updated the class description in the first post. Changes include:

*4 SP/level, added Speak Language and Use Magic Device to class skills.
*Enhanced Magic Domain moved to 5th level, it seemed rather powerful for the first ability.
*Organized arcane spells learned as theurgist into a third domain so that they can only be prepared once per day.
*Arcane Mastery at 9th level now loosens that restriction and allows theurgy domain spells to be cast once per day per level in normal spell slots.
*Added levels 11 and 12 for symmetry, although you'd need epic levels to attain them. I don't have a problem with epic theurgists getting 9th level spells. :-)

So, is it worth it? As a cleric with arcane training, would you give up 5 pts of BAB, 20 HP, and 10 levels' worth of extra turning potential to gain a personalized domain full of arcane spells?

If it still seems overpowered, I could add the restriction that arcane spell failure due to armor applies to all theurgy domain spells.

If it seems underpowered, they could get some minor additional abilities such as detect magic at will or the high-level identify spell 1x/day.

--Ben
 

This is much better, but I think that the potential of multiple unity effects is still a bit much. Maybe limit the level of the spells you can add to your list? Maybe the spells can't be higher than your wisdom bonus to tie the arcane and divine together more, or something. I just have an image of a high-intelligence theurgist adding his best spells to his cleric list four at a time or something (he could have eight really good wizard spells with an 18 int and no epic levels). But then again, I guess having the levels is what really makes it difficult. (I guess you'll have 3rd level spells for sure, but are you really going to take more wizard levels at that point? Well, maybe just to get the 4th level spells to add to your cleric list... I dunno...)hmm... I'll have to think this whole thing over again, just realized that.
 

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