PrC: Uncanny Gambler

[Halivar]

I'll be honest. This is probably a total rip-off of Mat Cauthon from the WoT series. I made it using the Shadowcraft Studios "Class Construction Engine." This is my first attempt at a PrC. I actually wrote it many months ago, but have not yet used it. Tell me what you think/pick it apart.

Well, here it is:

In the seediest watering holes in large cities, one needs nerves of steel to play at games of chance. One time caught cheating or even too many times winning can turn a man's luckiest night into his funeral. In such environments, the uncanny gambler thrives and makes his living.

As a master of chance, the gambler makes easy prey of even the most alert card shark. Uncanny gamblers find themselves unwelcome at more prestigious gambling establishments, and usually sticks to lower-class gambling areas. When thrust into high-society, however, the gambler uses his superb bluffing skills in his social interactions.

When his winning personality fails to avert a foe's sour grapes, the uncanny gambler relies on his skills with his hidden daggers. Many a wealthy adventurer has fallen trying to extract winnings from an “unarmed” opponent.
Hit Die: d6

Requirements
In order to become an uncanny gambler, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Alignment: Any chaotic.
Bluff: 6 ranks.
Tumble: 6 ranks.
Feats: Alertness, Quickdraw

Class Skills
The uncanny gambler's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Innuendo (Wis), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.

Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special
1 +1 +0 +2 +2 Luck 1/day
2 +2 +0 +3 +3 Throw dagger 1/action, evasion
3 +3 +1 +3 +3 Luck 2/day, uncanny dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
4 +4 +1 +4 +4 Throw dagger 2/action
5 +5 +1 +4 +4 Luck 3/day, improved critical (thrown dagger only)
6 +6 +2 +5 +5 Throw dagger 3/action, uncanny dodge (can't be flanked)
7 +7 +2 +5 +5 Luck 4/day
8 +8 +2 +6 +6 Throw dagger 4/action, improved evasion
9 +9 +3 +6 +6 Luck 5/day
10 +10 +3 +7 +7 Throw dagger 5/action, uncanny foresight

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the uncanny gambler prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Uncanny gamblers are proficient with daggers or other comparative piercing weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or with shields. They may have such proficiency from a previous class, but most uncanny gamblers skills are adversely affected by their use.

Luck (Su): Starting at first level, the uncanny gambler has extraordinairey luck in all random occurances. As many times a day as specified, the uncanny gambler's player can reroll any die roll for his character. Each roll can be rerolled only once. If the rerolled number is worse than original, it is used anyway. Luck can be invoked on any game of chance at will without counting towards the times per day that the luck ability is used. Instead, the times per day is taken as the total number of times that each random occurance can be rerolled (or redrawn, as the case may be). Essentially, the uncanny gambler never loses at the table. DM's should note that this will invariably lead to some amount of ire in opponents, who may decide to take back their winnings by force. It should also be noted that the luck ability may be used once and only once on a deck of many things.

Since luck is a supernatural ability, it does not work under magic-nullifying affects, and is otherwise hampered in the same way magical affects are.

Throw dagger (Ex): The uncanny gambler prefers to conceal his weapons, and daggers are just right for the job. Starting at second level, the uncanny gambler may launch one or more daggers (up to five at tenth level) as a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Since the gambler already has the Quickdraw feat, each of these daggers may be hidden on the gamblers body prior to being thrown. As a caveat, however, in such situations all attack bonuses suffer armor check penalties, signifying the necessity of light or no armor when performing such an attack.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As a rogue's ability (See Chapter 3: Classes in the Player's Handbook for feature description), except only the 3rd and 6th levels of the feature are gained.

Evasion (Ex): As a rogue's ability (See Chapter 3: Classes in the Player's Handbook for feature description).

Improved Evasion (Ex): As a rogue's ability (See Chapter 3: Classes in the Player's Handbook for feature description), except it is gained by the gambler at 8th level.

Uncanny Foresight (Su): Having become the master of luck, the 10th level uncanny gambler is surprised by nothing. He gains uncanny foresight, which works like the 9th level arcane spell foresight, including its shortcomings. It is always in effect, however, and only works for specific threats to the gambler himself. Vague threats to his party at large do not trip this ability, only direct, imminent (one round) danger to the gambler are sensed.

If the gambler can cast or otherwise be affected by the arcane foresight spell, its affects do not stack. Rather, the affect used is that of the arcane spell for its duration.

Since uncanny foresight is a supernatural ability, it does not work in under magic-nullifying affects, and is otherwise hampered in the same way magical affects are.

Improved critical (Su, thrown dagger only): Even without aiming, the uncanny gamblers daggers always seems to hit just the right spot. When throwing daggers, the ciritcal threat range of the weapon is doubled. This abilitity is supernatural (since it is tied to the luck ability) and is hampered in the same manner luck is. This ability does not stack with the Improved Critical feat.

Whatcha think?

 

[Arc]

Evasion at level 2 for a PrC with very low prereqs seems a bit overpowered. Adding Uncanny Dodge at level 3 makes this class quite front loaded. A few characters might take it out to 8th level for the Imp. Evasion, and fewer still to get Uncanny Foresight. Also, the Luck 1/day at first level is fairly powerful for the investment. Overall, the class is just a bit too heavy on non-flavor benifits (why would the gambler have evasion?).

 

[Technik4]

First of all, I dont think there is anything too wrong with your prc mechanically except for the pre-reqs, which are too low; a 3rd level rogue or bard could qualify with ease, most prcs are aimed at 5th or 6th level.

However, there are some other things which don't sit well with me. First this character has a very rogue-like appearance. D6 hp, uncanny dodge, evasion, good reflex save, and a wide skill list (although you forgot to specify how many skill points per level, I recommend 4+int). However they have a fighter's BAB and an additional good save.

First you must define what you want the gambler to be capable of. Personally I see it having all good saves (as a monk) along with some of the roguish abilities youve given (uncanny dodge and evasion). Those abilities along with the regular re-rolling abilities and the high level foresight ability represent the "luck" of the class well enough. I would reduce the BAB to rogue.

Now we come to the Throw Dagger ability. It is my understanding that a rogue with 5 daggers concealed on his person and the quickdraw feat could throw 1 dagger for each iterative attack he receives. Personally, that sounds about right. Now your ability, which appears to give allow the uncanny gambler to throw daggers as a free action, is clearly broken. An attack requires an attack action, and if the daggers are hidden on the body it is no penalty to retrieve them with the Quickdraw feat.

I think an ability much like the duelist prc would serve well here (in fact the whole class feels like a variant duelist to me), precise strike. It is essentially Sneak Attack, but it applies whenever a small set of weapons is used and does not require the target to be denied their dex or flat-footed.

Now we come back to that pre-req problem. Since we want to give both uncanny dodge and evasion, lets make one a pre-req to the class along with a BAB requirement.

Hit Die: d6

Requirements
In order to become an uncanny gambler, a character must fulfill the following criteria.
Alignment: Non-Lawful.
Bluff: 8 ranks.
Tumble: 8 ranks.
BAB: +4
Feats: Alertness, Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Any Dagger or Dart)
Special: Evasion or Luck Domain

<Added 2 ranks to base skill checks, added BAB +4, added evasion or luck domain, weapon focus (any dagger or dart), changed chaotic to non-lawful>

Class Skills
The uncanny gambler's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Innuendo (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge [Any Local] (Int), Listen (Wis), Read Lips (Int, exclusive), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), and Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skill Points Per Level: 4 + Int

<Added Intimidate, Knowledge [Any Local], Listen, Read Lips. Took away Search.>

Base Fort Ref Will
Level Attack Bonus Save Save Save Special
1 +0 +2 +2 +2 Luck 1/day
2 +1 +3 +3 +3 Precise Strike +1d4
3 +2 +3 +3 +3 Longshot, Uncanny dodge (Dex bonus to AC)
4 +3 +4 +4 +4 Luck 2/day
5 +3 +4 +4 +4 Precise Strike +2d4
6 +4 +5 +5 +5 Uncanny dodge (can't be flanked)
7 +5 +5 +5 +5 Luck 3/day
8 +6 +6 +6 +6 Precise Strike +3d4
9 +6 +6 +6 +6 Improved evasion
10 +7 +7 +7 +7 Luck 4/day, uncanny foresight

<Took away Fighter BAB, Thrown Dagger, Improved Critical, and 1 use of Luck. Added Precise Strike +1d4, +2d4, and +3d4 (for use only with daggers), moved Improved Evasion back 1 level, increased fort saving throw, added Longshot>

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the uncanny gambler prestige class.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Uncanny gamblers are proficient with any non-exotic type of dagger or dart. They do not gain any other weapon or armor proficiencies.

Luck (Su): Starting at first level, the uncanny gambler has extraordinairey luck in all random occurances. As many times a day as specified, the uncanny gambler's player can reroll any die roll for his character. Each roll can be rerolled only once. If the rerolled number is worse than original, it is used anyway. Luck can be invoked on any game of chance at will, but each use of luck lasts one gambling "encounter". Each use of luck is taken as the total number of times that each random occurance can be rerolled (or redrawn, as the case may be). Essentially, the uncanny gambler never loses at the table.

DM's note: this will invariably lead to some amount of ire in opponents, who may decide to take back their winnings by force. It should also be noted that the luck ability may be used once and only once on a deck of many things.

Precise Strike (Ex): The uncanny gambler prefers to conceal his weapons, and daggers and darts are just right for the job. Starting at second level, the uncanny gambler adds +1d4 damage whenever he uses any type of dagger or dart. This damage does not affect creatures with no discernable anatomy or those who are immune to critical hits. This damage does not get multiplied on a critical hit. This bonus damage only applies within a range of 30 feet. This damage is only calculated once per attack.

Longshot (Su, thrown dagger and dart only): Uncanny gamblers have great skill with the thrown dagger. Their base range for a throwing dagger is 20 ft, for a dart it is 40 ft. If the uncanny gambler has the feat Far Shot, the base range for a throwing dagger is 40 ft and dart becomes 80 ft. This ability does not stack with any magical enhancements, and any range above 30 is considered Supernatural.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As a rogue's ability (See Chapter 3: Classes in the Player's Handbook for feature description). Any previous levels of Uncanny Dodge stack with these levels.

Improved Evasion (Ex): As a rogue's ability (See Chapter 3: Classes in the Player's Handbook for feature description), except it is gained by the gambler at 9th level.

Uncanny Foresight (Su): Having become the master of luck, the 10th level uncanny gambler is surprised by nothing. He gains uncanny foresight, which works like the 9th level arcane spell foresight, including its shortcomings. It is always in effect, however, and only works for specific threats to the gambler himself. Vague threats to his party at large do not trip this ability, only direct, imminent (one round) danger to the gambler are sensed.


Well thats my take. There is another luck-based prc in Faiths and Pantheons, a FR sourcebook. That prc is based on the cleric domain luck and advances spellcasting.

Edited: Added Darts as a weapon for use with most class abilities.

Technik

 

[Halivar]

Brilliant. That's why I posted the Gambler here. I see how you guys pick apart /put together classes is really impressive.

For my part, I knew I had to rogue skills wrong. A rogue who already has those special abilities has no reason to dip into this PrC as it originally was.

Your comments were most insightful.

 

[Coredump]

I am not sure I understand the need for an "uncanny gambler" to be the most bad-assed dagger weilder. Just not sure how it fits.

I could see some prediliction to using a small/tiny weapon; but why mandate a dagger. While the 'free action' was painful, the precise shot is actually very similar. Assume 5th lvl UG and every dagger you hit does triple damage. As if for everyone you threw, you got two more as a 'free action' (Yes, not quite as good, but close) Combine that with being able to re-roll any 2 misses, and it seems pretty powerful.

Plus, any mechanic that allows a player to "never lose" is going to get totally abused, and when it regards money, it will easily unbalance the game. Any decent UG will be able to lose lose lose WINBIG lose lose WINBIG and have a ton of money to buy magic items with; easily screwing up your game.

I really like that Alertness is a pre-req.


For the dagger issue, I would get rid of the precise shot, and go with a concealment. ie. A UG can conceal a number of tiny or (insert list of small weapons here) weapons about his person. Anyone searching or looking gets a minus 10 (or whatever, perhaps 2X UG lvl) on their roll to detect them. Though concealed, they may be quickdrawn as if in a normal sheath. (Remember, quickdraw doesn't mean you can get *any* weapon, regardless of where/how it is stored)
This seems to add to the 'tricky' aspect, give them an advantage, but not mandate that they are Dagger Masters

Now, the concealment benefit isn't as good as the damage bonus, so I would add something else also. (maybe precise strike for surprise only, or under same circ as sneak attack, or first round only. But I was actually thinking of some totally different benefit.)

As for the luck rolls, I am not sure if I understand exactly what the two of you mean the rules to be for games of chance, so not sure what to offer.

I have always prefered to make them declare when they want to 'feel luck'; then they can roll both dice together, and take the higher one. Has some advantages, and some disadvantages. I prefer it this way though.


I think the idea has merit, good luck with it.

.

 

[Technik4]

Well a gambler is not an overt character. Neither is he a sneaky character, yet he must be balanced with other classes for his level. Hence, giving him a damage upgrade seems pretty necessary. I mean, no spells, no sneak attack, no sneak skill, no trap and lock disarming, this guy really needs a "shtick" and I just expanded on the original theme of daggers, especially as it makes sense for a gambler since it is easily concealed.

Alternately, you could just use Sneak Attack, but I dont feel it fits the gambler very well.

Also keep in mind that you don't see hardly anyone use a dagger without sneak attack. And this character doesnt have it. So triple damage with a dagger for 5th UG (with +3d6 Sneak Attack) is compared to regular damage for a 10th level rogue (+6d6 Sneak Attack). Additionally, the 10th level rogue will have one high level ability, like skill mastery or slippery mind.

3d4+3d6 = 18 dam avg
1d4+6d6 = 23.5 dam avg

The rogue with a dagger does more, and the rogue will probably be using a rapier which has a higher damage die and a better crit range. Which means more damage. The gambler comes up better if we assume that neither get a sneak attack (but the creature is not immune to criticals), however it is more likely that the rogue would get the sneak attack and the gambler would not.

Furthermore, due to the rogue probably having a better weapon (and/or two weapon fighting) against non-crittable creatures, the rogue still comes out on top damage wise. The rogue also has tons more skill points, allocated in better skills.

All the UG has going for him are his saves (defensive) and his luck. Also he has the advantage of throwing daggers from a distance and getting Precise Strike whereas a rogue with a rapier must close in. Of course, ranged attacks suffer their own problems.

Quickdraw states you can draw a weapon as a free action. It does not stipulate that the weapon must be in a sheath, or not concealed. I might stipulate as a house rule that only small or tiny weapons can be concealed, and perhaps that small weapons cannot be quickdrawn. In any case, it doesnt affect the dagger.

Personally I think the only change necessary is to add "dart" to the list of requirements for weapon focus, the bonuses from Precise Strike, and the bonuses for longshot. Especially because a dart is a pretty classic gambling weapon

As for luck during games of chance, as he said it can almost be bad luck winning so often that you become a target. I don't think it would be abused to the point of being unbalanced, but it could get out of hand. Since it is a magical ability, however, most really expensive gambling houses probably have something to detect magic on their patrons, and the UG may be asked to leave before he starts winning. This pushes him underground where the penalty for "cheating" is a brawl.

Technik

 

[Coredump]

Howdy Tecknik,
Some good points, some I agree with, and some... well lets see.

yet he must be balanced with other classes for his level. Hence, giving him a damage upgrade seems pretty necessary.

I agree that he needs something, I just don't agree that the two options given really fit with the class that well. Why is an UG also have to be a Dagger Master? (or Dart Master?). It seems like his 'schtick' is to be lucky alot, lets try and find ways of dealing with that.

Alternately, you could just use Sneak Attack, but I dont feel it fits the gambler very well.

Agreed.

3d4+3d6 = 18 dam avg
1d4+6d6 = 23.5 dam avg

Agreed, but that is not the entire story.
The Rogues damage is based on sneak attack, and suffers from those restrictions. The UG damage does not. If you have to move to get the SA in, you lose an attack (and the damage from that attack). If you are unable to be flanking someone, you lose that damage, if you kill one and have to move to another, you lose that damage. (at least for one attack, more if high enough level)
Meanwhile, the UG can just stand where he is and toss away. (assuming 5' steps are sufficient. With his increased range, it makes it even easier. PLUS, two times that the rogue would miss, the UG gets to try again, again gaining more damage. Plus, the rogue 'has' to spend points in tumble to avoid AoO as he tries to get into flanking position for SA. Points the UG can use elsewhere.

The rogue with a dagger does more, and the rogue will probably be using a rapier which has a higher damage die and a better crit range. Which means more damage.
and
Also he has the advantage of throwing daggers from a distance and getting Precise Strike whereas a rogue with a rapier must close in.

Yep, the rapier does an extra point per hit; assuming a 50% hit chance, that is an extra .5 points per attack. The trade off is that you have to be in melee range, and you have to *move* to melee range, thereby costing you a certain number of attacks. Seems like a fairly even trade to me.

Furthermore, due to the rogue probably having a better weapon (and/or two weapon fighting) against non-crittable creatures

Why? no where does it say that the UG *can't* use another weapon. Against the uncrittable creature, the UG would just pull his rapier also. (or greatsword, or whatever)

Quickdraw states you can draw a weapon as a free action. It does not stipulate that the weapon must be in a sheath, or not concealed. I might stipulate as a house rule that only small or tiny weapons can be concealed, and perhaps that small weapons cannot be quickdrawn. In any case, it doesnt affect the dagger.

Well, sort of. If someone has a dagger in a belt sheath, then we can agree that it can be QD. If the dagger is in the bottom of a backpack, I think we can agree that it can't be QD. Now, as you quote the feat, it just says "drawn"; so technically, I *should* be able to 'draw' it from the bottom of my closed pack; but we can all see that was not the intent.
Now, the difficulty lies in where the line should be placed for when it is/isn't allowed. My theory was that in order to conceal something so well that it would give a -10 penalty on finding it, it would have to be on the 'other' side of that line. ie. strapped to your thigh under your pants, so you can't QD that. My assertion was that the UG would be much better at being able to place and retrieve these 'hidden' items that he could QD items that 'normal' folk would have to fumble for.

Personally I think the only change necessary is to add "dart" to the list of requirements for weapon focus, the bonuses from Precise Strike, and the bonuses for longshot.

Well, actually looking at the available options.... There just are not very many tiny choices. (Plus, it strikes me as um... 'awkward' to hide even daggers, those things are supposedly 18" of steel, plus a crossgaurd. This is not a slam on the UG, just an observation. Heck, darts are *2feet*)
But, why not a Saigham, or shuriken, or that chain weapon from oriental, or kukri, or garrote, or small blowgun/dart, or sling, or sap, or any other Tiny (or some concealable small) weapon? Why does a UG *have* to be a "Dagger/Dart Master"? And why does it even make sense? I could see how it *could* make sense, but why does it have to for all builds of the UG? What other PrC's give bonuses to one specific weapon? (Except those based on diety weapon, or that are SwordMaster type PrCs)

Upon thinking, this is my latest incarnation:
Get rid of Precise strike (Dagger) and replace with :
Concealed Weapon: Can hid UG lvl x2 tiny weapons, or UG lvl /2 small weapons. Any searching for them will suffer a -(10+UG lvl). Though extremely well concealed, they are available enough to allow for QD.
Luck Shot: Any proficient weapon the UG weilds tends to get more lucky shots. As such, add the bonus to the final crit range of any weapon the UG is using. (Not sure about when/how many to give, but for now..) At lvl 2 it is +1, at level 5 it is +2, at level 10 it is +3.

The Lucky Shot provides a combat bonus, without forcing the character into one mindset as to the 'appropriate' weapon, and while still maintaining the 'schtick' of being unusually lucky.
Concealed weapon allows for being 'prepared', yet not necessarily a walking dagger store.

As for luck during games of chance, as he said it can almost be bad luck winning so often that you become a target.

Agreed, but the UG can turn it on and off. In fact, from what I read, even if he rolls high, he can reroll to try and fail. You get in trouble for always winning. This way he can lose some nights, and other nights win big. Or do the lose lose lose WINBIG lose lose WINBIG as I mentioned before. Believe me, if I know I will 90+% win, and can turn it on and off, it will be easy for me to get way more stuff than normal for that level. (Some more stuff may be a balancing benefit, but I mean way more.)

Since it is a magical ability, however, most really expensive gambling houses probably have something to detect magic on their patrons, and the UG may be asked to leave before he starts winning

heh heh, how many 'expensive gambling houses' do you have in your campaign? I am envisioning a medieval Las Vegas.
Anyway, remember, *lots* of people have 'supernatural' magic, not to mention carrying magic items. Assuming it *is* a high end expensive gambling house, what percentage of patrions/body gaurds do you think will *not* have some sort of Su ability or other magic on them? (Sorry Cleric of Pelor, you radiate with magic, you can't come in here.)


Other ideas: You could give them evasion at some level (assuming they came in with Luck Domain) and perhaps give them some access to the Luck Domain spells as innate, 1/day type stuff. I don't have the DMG so I can't check what they are. Just a thought.

I like the UG/lucky guy concept. Just don't like it being overtaken by the "dagger master" concept.

.

 

[Technik4]

Also he has the advantage of throwing daggers from a distance and getting Precise Strike whereas a rogue with a rapier must close in. Of course, ranged attacks suffer their own problems.

Protection from arrows, wind wall, and the like prevent ranged attacks. Furthermore, Precise Strike is as limited as sneak attack in terms of what kind of creatures it affects (the kind that can be critted) so the 2 are really balanced with regard to each other. The advantage of Precise Strike is that it is always on, Sneak Attack however is more dice and a higher die type.

I think you find daggers to be very narrow but myself find it to be a broad type. There are daggers, punching daggers, and kukris in the phb. The class also states it works with any other type of dagger, so any kind of homebrew dagger is game. The dagger itself is rather versatile for its proficiency, as it can be thrown at range, has a good crit, and is easily hidden (or used even while wearing a gauntlet). Adding dart merely expands the list and allows for an all ranged build, whereas the dagger build can go to melee.

As far as why doesnt the UG go for 2wf? Well its possible, but not easy. Lets look at a couple builds, all human for the sake of comparison.

Human Rog5/UnG5- Alertness, Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Dart), Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot.

Future Holds: Far Shot, Rapid Shot, Improved Critical.
Prognosis: Primarily a ranged combatant, relies on Precise Strike more than Sneak Attack as ranged sneak attacks are difficult to pull off.

Human Rog5/UnG5- Alertness, Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Punching Dagger), 2wf, Improved Feint

Future Holds: Improved Critical, Improved 2wf, 2wf Defense
Prognosis: Primarily a 2wf, relies on blluffing and sneak attacks, follows up with flanks and 2-weapon attacks.

Human Rog5/Asn1/UnG4- Alertness, Quickdraw, Exotic Wpn Proficiency (Kukri), Weapon Focus (Kukri)

Future Holds: Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, ???
Prognosis: Relies on Exotic weapon for higher base damage, good crit range. Relies on Sneak Attack to take out monsters.


And so on. I'm sure there are some fighter/rog builds, some cleric builds, and perhaps a bard build or 2, but even being confined to "daggers and darts" lends itself many options. I based this idea off of the duelist, who has a small subset of weapons (1-h piercing) with which she gains many abilities.

I think your concealment rules may have merit, but not sure how often it will come up in play.

Technik

 

[Halivar]

I guess when I originally was thinking of the concept, I just said, "hey, a lucky gambler type a la Maverick or Doc Holliday would be cool" and just tried to patch in stuff that fit.

The only reason I picked daggers in the first place is because I thought such a rogue would prefer concealed weapons (maintain a good "poker face").

To that end, the Precise Strike stuff is probably more in line with the original concept then Throw Dagger 1000-times-per-action. Concealment of the daggers was really just for flair. It probably has no practical use in the game mechanics.

 

[Coredump]

Hey, having fun with the exchanges....


krap krap krap krap *KRAP*

Sorry, but I was going along just fine during a very nice long thought out post, when I realized a basic flaw in my scenario building. When you gave the damage averages I read and understood them, and then immediately got my wires crossed. I kept thinking that the rogue got 23.5 when using SA, and the UG got 18.5 when using PS; but really the UG needed PS **AND** SA. So many of the 'advantages' I was writing about for the UG was based around not needing to meet the SA conditions. So now I get to rewrite most of this..... Like I said... krap.

Protection from arrows, wind wall, and the like prevent ranged attacks.

I agree, but it seems like grasping at straws here. This fact hasn't stopped tons of archers from playing, so there has to be some benefit to not having to be in melee range.
(after changes...
Well, either class can use range, and either can use melee. (Is precise shot only for ranged? If that is the case, I will switch and say it is more pain than benefit) When SA is not available (not flanked, etc) The UG will do more damage; but not a 'lot' more, so I don't know how important this is.

Furthermore, Precise Strike is as limited as sneak attack in terms of what kind of creatures it affects (the kind that can be critted) so the 2 are really balanced with regard to each other. The advantage of Precise Strike is that it is always on, Sneak Attack however is more dice and a higher die type.

Okay, this is where I wrote a whole bunch of stuff, that is now gone.
But, if PS is only for ranged, than you kinda screw the UG. SA hardish to use at range, PS not in melee. hmmmm....


OTOH, I really don't think EITHER of these really fits the character concept. Why, oh WHY do must we assume that a lucky gambler is the worlds best dagger weilder?

I think you find daggers to be very narrow but myself find it to be a broad type

Not quite, I think it is *unnecessarily* narrow. What is the logic that forces this limitation? And why is it that a Master Gambler is required to be a Dagger Master also? I just dont see how it fits. Even leaving it open for any weapon, I don't see how it fits. This is Maverick, not Zorro. (Hell Mat used a polearm)
Oh, I think Dagger would be a good, and versatile choice, just don't see why it should be the only choice. Nor why a UG should have to be overly adept at any one weapon, he is a gambler, not a duelist.

As far as why doesnt the UG go for 2wf? Well its possible, but not easy. Lets look at a couple builds, all human for the sake of comparison.

I should have edited your quote better, I was not saying that I thought a UG would have 2wf. You mentioned a situation where SA and PS would not work, saying that the Rogue would have the advantage from having a better weapon. I simply stated that the UG has access to those same weapons, without losing any further advantages. As for 2wf, it takes several feats, so it is debatable how much of an advantage it would be. Plus, remember, that you brought this up in regards to *uncrittable* encounters, a not so common occurence.



Okay, here are my gripes in a nutshell.
1. It is forcing a Master Gambler, based on being uncommonly lucky, to also be a weapon master.
2. It is unnecassarily narrowing the weapon selection down to just Dagger or Dart.
3. There is no 'combat advantage' built around his 'luck'.
4. It is waaayy too easy to break the game via gambling. (unless I am just really missing the mechanic involved.)


Yes, Concealed Weapon was meant to be more flair and flavor rather than a major advantage. But I do really think it could have some benefits; but we can go into those later.

Neither of you commented on my suggestion of increasing the threat range. (It is added to the final, so it is not multiplied by other feats, etc.) That would give a combat advantage, not limit the weapon choice, not require him to be a weapon master, and would still build on his previous class.
Assuming a rogue is using a rapier, and by 6th level has a +2 rapier, but now becomes a UG, and has to 'give it up' in order to benefit from PS. Hmmm....

BUt there are also other ways to gain a combat advantage, while still using the 'lucky' mechanic.

Once per level, per day; the UG can 'feel lucky'; this allows him to roll 2 dice at the same time, and choose which to take.
or
Once every other level, he gets one die he can use once a day as above. (roll simultaneously, take choice) But he can use as many dice as he has still available. (ie, at 8th lvl UG, he has 4 dice, he could add one die to four separate rolls, or add all 4 to one roll, etc. But once used, they are not available until the next day.) This allows for a bit more 'extraordinary' luck to shine through.
or
Foes have a X% chance to miss on their first shot. (man, I thought he had you, you sure got lucky)
or
Add CHA bonus to AC
or
Everytime you miss, it gives a cumulative +1 (max of UG lvl) until you succeed. (You can't be unlucky for long.)
or
Any first hit that would place you at/below 0 HP puts you at 1 instead. (Or give a X% chance) (You were dead meat, lucky thing you slipped right then.)
or
Called shots are only -3
or
X times per day, can use called shot with no penalty (how the hell did you hit his eye; man was that a lucky shot)
or
etc.
etc.

All of these will give a combat advantage without forcing the UG to become some inconsistent Weapon Master; and play along with the "boy are you lucky" aspect.
In addition, they can work with the previous class build; unlike having to switch to being a Dagger Master.


Also, I restate my position that the ability to make that much money, that easily, can really mess with the game.

I based this idea off of the duelist,

And I think this might be the problem, this is a gambler, not a duelist. Why force a lucky gambler to be a specialized duelist?

I just said, "hey, a lucky gambler type a la Maverick or Doc Holliday would be cool"

Mat, Maverick, Doc; none of which used daggers. (granted, two had guns, but still. Hell, Maverick was a LOUSY shot, no combat skills to speak of.


I think I got too bogged down in the PS vs SA issue, especially since I think both are poor choices for this class.

Hope you enjoy.

.