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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Coredump" data-source="post: 916449" data-attributes="member: 6939">Howdy Tecknik,Some good points, some I agree with, and some... well lets see. I agree that he needs something, I just don't agree that the two options given really fit with the class that well.  Why is an UG also have to be a Dagger Master? (or Dart Master?).  It seems like his 'schtick' is to be lucky alot, lets try and find ways of dealing with that. Agreed. Agreed, but that is not the entire story.The Rogues damage is based on sneak attack, and suffers from those restrictions. The UG damage does not. If you have to move to get the SA in, you lose an attack (and the damage from that attack). If you are unable to be flanking someone, you lose that damage, if you kill one and have to move to another, you lose that damage. (at least for one attack, more if high enough level)Meanwhile, the UG can just stand where he is and toss away. (assuming 5' steps are sufficient. With his increased range, it makes it even easier. PLUS, two times that the rogue would miss, the UG gets to try again, again gaining more damage.  Plus, the rogue 'has' to spend points in tumble to avoid AoO as he tries to get into flanking position for SA. Points the UG can use elsewhere. Yep, the rapier does an extra point per hit; assuming a 50% hit chance, that is an extra .5 points per attack. The trade off is that you have to be in melee range, and you have to *move* to melee range, thereby costing you a certain number of attacks. Seems like a fairly even trade to me.  Why? no where does it say that the UG *can't* use another weapon. Against the uncrittable creature, the UG would just pull his rapier also. (or greatsword, or whatever)   Well, sort of.  If someone has a dagger in a belt sheath, then we can agree that it can be QD. If the dagger is in the bottom of a backpack, I think we can agree that it can't be QD. Now, as you quote the feat, it just says "drawn"; so technically, I *should* be able to 'draw' it from the bottom of my closed pack; but we can all see that was not the intent.Now, the difficulty lies in where the line should be placed for when it is/isn't allowed.  My theory was that in order to conceal something so well that it would give a -10 penalty on finding it, it would have to be on the 'other' side of that line. ie. strapped to your thigh under your pants, so you can't QD that. My assertion was that the UG would be much better at being able to place and retrieve these 'hidden' items that he could QD items that 'normal' folk would have to fumble for. Well, actually looking at the available options....  There just are not very many tiny choices. (Plus, it strikes me as um... 'awkward' to hide even daggers, those things are supposedly 18" of steel, plus a crossgaurd. This is not a slam on the UG, just an observation. Heck, darts are *2feet*) But, why not a Saigham, or shuriken, or that chain weapon from oriental, or kukri, or garrote, or small blowgun/dart, or sling, or sap, or any other Tiny (or some concealable small) weapon? Why does a UG *have* to be a "Dagger/Dart Master"? And why does it even make sense? I could see how it *could* make sense, but why does it have to for all builds of the UG? What other PrC's give bonuses to one specific weapon? (Except those based on diety weapon, or that are SwordMaster type PrCs)Upon thinking, this is my latest incarnation:Get rid of Precise strike (Dagger) and replace with :Concealed Weapon: Can hid UG lvl x2 tiny weapons, or UG lvl /2 small weapons. Any searching for them will suffer a -(10+UG lvl). Though extremely well concealed, they are available enough to allow for QD.Luck Shot: Any proficient weapon the UG weilds tends to get more lucky shots. As such, add the bonus to the final crit range of any weapon the UG is using.  (Not sure about when/how many to give, but for now..) At lvl 2 it is +1, at level 5 it is +2, at level 10 it is +3.The Lucky Shot provides a combat bonus, without forcing the character into one mindset as to the 'appropriate' weapon, and while still maintaining the 'schtick' of being unusually lucky.Concealed weapon allows for being 'prepared', yet not necessarily a walking dagger store. Agreed, but the UG can turn it on and off. In fact, from what I read, even if he rolls high, he can reroll to try and fail. You get in trouble for always winning. This way he can lose some nights, and other nights win big. Or do the lose lose lose WINBIG lose lose WINBIG as I mentioned before. Believe me, if I know I will 90+% win,  and can turn it on and off, it will be easy for me to get way more stuff than normal for that level. (Some more stuff may be a balancing benefit, but I mean way more.) heh heh, how many 'expensive gambling houses' do you have in your campaign?  I am envisioning a medieval Las Vegas. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Anyway, remember, *lots* of people have 'supernatural' magic, not to mention carrying magic items. Assuming it *is* a high end expensive gambling house, what percentage of patrions/body gaurds do you think will *not* have some sort of Su ability or other magic on them? (Sorry Cleric of Pelor, you radiate with magic, you can't come in here.)Other ideas: You could give them evasion at some level (assuming they came in with Luck Domain) and perhaps give them some access to the Luck Domain spells as innate, 1/day type stuff. I don't have the DMG so I can't check what they are. Just a thought.I like the UG/lucky guy concept. Just don't like it being overtaken by the "dagger master" concept..</blockquote>

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