Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 448910" data-attributes="member: 3146">+1/level spellcasting progression is dramatically different for wizards, sorcerors, druids, and clerics both in terms of abilities gained/lost and opportunity cost.Abilities gained/lost:Clerics often give up saves, hit dice, attack bonus, and Turn/Rebuke progression as well.Druids give up saves, hit dice, attack bonus, wildshape, and special druid abilities.Wizards give up familiar progression, and their 1/5 levels bonus feat.Sorcerors give up familiar progression.In this analysis it would seem that sorcerors hardly have anything to lose by taking a prestige class but this is only half of the picture. There are also the opportunity costs of the prerequisites. Since prerequisites are usually a bunch of ranks in knowledge or profession skills and suboptimal feats (skill focus: knowledge or scry, endurance, cooperative spell) this effects the classes differently:Clerics: Since clerics are a 2 skill point/level class without much use for a high intelligence score (other than skill points), clerics often have to give up half to 1/3 of their skill points in order to take a prestige class. Since they only have two knowledge skills as class skills unless they have the knowledge domain, this means that they will often have to spend those points inefficiently (cross-class). In effect, this means that dwarven, elven, and particularly half-orc clerics are often forced to choose between advancing concentration and ever qualifying for any prestige class. Similarly clerics get no bonus feats so any class with one or two suboptimal prerequisite feats (such as skill focus: scry or knowledge) presents a dramatic opportunity cost to clerics--even more so for non-human clerics.Druids: Druids get more skill points/level than clerics so that portion of the opportunity cost isn't as steep but they are just as limited in terms of feats.Wizards: Wizards probably have the best deal in terms of opportunity costs. Their high intelligence means that they generally have the most skill points of any of the full time spellcasting classes--even after maxing out concentration and keeping enough spellcraft to succeed at scribing spells while taking 10. Their access to all knowledge skills means that they rarely have to pay the cross-class rate for gaining necessary skills. Furthermore their bonus feat every five levels somewhat offsets the opportunity cost of some classes.Sorcerors: Mostly, sorcerors are in the same boat as clerics. They get a minimal number of skill points (2/level) and generally have no other use for intelligence than skill points. They need high concentration skill as much as any spellcaster. They only have one knowledge skill on their class-list. Furthermore, they get no bonus feats so they acutely feel the opportunity cost of class feats.Looking at how these are applied to a prestige class: Sacred Exorcist can give you a feel for the costs involved (unfortunately it is not available to druids):Abilities:Sacred ExorcistCleric: gives up fort saves. gains prestige domain, special abilitiesWizard: gives up 1 bonus feat/5 levels, familiar progression, gains d8 hd, domain spells (including two at lower levels than he would otherwise get), 3/4attack bonus, special abilities.Sorceror: gives up familiar progression, gains prestige domain spells known, d8 hd, 3/4 attack bonus, special abilities.Opportunity Costs:Cleric: 10 ranks of knowledge: religion, 7 ranks of knowledge: planes represent almost 2/3 of your typical human cleric's (with the knowledge domain) skill points until 7th level. For a nonhuman cleric, they represent almost all of those skill points. That is a cleric who won't know much spellcraft, diplomacy, knowledge arcana, etc and may very well have to sacrifice his  concentration score. For a cleric without the knowledge domain, the class is unavailable until 11th level and has similar though more pronounced (as they cover 4 more levels) effects on other skills.Wizard: 10 ranks of knowledge: religion, 7 ranks of knowledge: planes, ability to cast Dismissal. This represents 1/2 of a 9th level wizard's 5th level spells (in his spellbook) but less than 1/3 of his available skill points (assuming he's human). The wizard can max concentration and spellcraft and still have two or three more skills maxed out).Sorceror: 10 ranks of knowledge: religion, 7 ranks of knowledge: planes, ability to cast dismissal. This class is completely unavailable to a non-multiclassed sorceror until level 17 (when 10 ranks of knowledge religion (cross-classed) would be available) and at that point will require him to have lived with dismissal as one of his few 5th level spells (usually a suboptimal choice) for at least several levels. It will also usually take up 2/3 (assuming human or 12 int) of the sorceror's skills up to that point forcing the sorceror to skimp on concentration or forgoe spellcraft and knowledge: arcana entirely. If the sorceror were to take another prestige class that did grant all knowledge skills as class skills--candlecaster for instance--Sacred Exorcist would be available as early as 10th level but would require the sorceror's only 5th level spell to be dismissal and the progression through both prestige classes would almost certainly force the sorceror to sacrifice his concentration skill.So, for a cleric, there are either significant or dramatic opportunity costs (depending upon whether or not he has the knowledge domain). For a wizard there are significant but not too dramatic opportunity costs and for a sorceror, there are dramatic, almost prohibitive opportunity costs involved in taking the class.</blockquote>

Verification