Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7456577" data-attributes="member: 996">True.&nbsp; d20 did consolidate baroque dice mechanics down to d20+bonuses vs DC.&nbsp; Then it added 18 named modifiers to keep track of.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />&nbsp; And, 40 conditions...... 4e actually consolidated those 40 conditions down to 18 (5e further, to 15).&nbsp; And the power structure and class advancement was also a further consolidation (3e had put all classes on the same exp, HD &amp; save progressions; 4e also put them on the same AEDU and &quot;BAB&quot; progressions).&nbsp; So that was all simpler, really - confusing &amp; unfamiliar if you were accustomed to earlier eds, but less complex.&nbsp; But, following your hypothesis, like 3e, it took that slack and wrapped it up in potentially enormous build complexity, just a sheer volume of options.&nbsp; (Most egregiously, thousands of pointless 'chaff' feats.)&nbsp;Even with d20 consolidation of some of it's more pointless sub-systems, AD&amp;D is still a pretty needlessly complex structure to slave a modern design too, and it shows in 5e's version of it.&nbsp; Or, rather, it /doesn't/ show if you've internalized all that AD&amp;D weirdness.&nbsp; The only things that look weird and needlessly complicated to jaded eyes are the neo-Vancian prep-then-cast-spontaneously, because, well, it is more complex (though simultaneously more versatile), but mainly because it's just /different/ from traditional Vancian... but, with spells still in the familiar 9 levels that almost but not quite map to level/2, I guess it's OK...... of course, 5e did make up it's loss of complexity slack somewhere:&nbsp; by doing away with all those 3e &amp; 4e options &amp; build complexities.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7456577, member: 996"] True. d20 did consolidate baroque dice mechanics down to d20+bonuses vs DC. Then it added 18 named modifiers to keep track of. ;) And, 40 conditions... ... 4e actually consolidated those 40 conditions down to 18 (5e further, to 15). And the power structure and class advancement was also a further consolidation (3e had put all classes on the same exp, HD & save progressions; 4e also put them on the same AEDU and "BAB" progressions). So that was all simpler, really - confusing & unfamiliar if you were accustomed to earlier eds, but less complex. But, following your hypothesis, like 3e, it took that slack and wrapped it up in potentially enormous build complexity, just a sheer volume of options. (Most egregiously, thousands of pointless 'chaff' feats.) Even with d20 consolidation of some of it's more pointless sub-systems, AD&D is still a pretty needlessly complex structure to slave a modern design too, and it shows in 5e's version of it. Or, rather, it /doesn't/ show if you've internalized all that AD&D weirdness. The only things that look weird and needlessly complicated to jaded eyes are the neo-Vancian prep-then-cast-spontaneously, because, well, it is more complex (though simultaneously more versatile), but mainly because it's just /different/ from traditional Vancian... but, with spells still in the familiar 9 levels that almost but not quite map to level/2, I guess it's OK... ... of course, 5e did make up it's loss of complexity slack somewhere: by doing away with all those 3e & 4e options & build complexities. [/QUOTE]

Verification