D&D 4E Pre PHB2: Are we happy with WotC's maintenance of 4ED

[the8bitdeity]

Firstly I'm a huge 4ED fan, but the one thing that I'm concerned over is retroactive maintenance of existing material. Take "Veteran's Armor" for example. The official line was it was determined to be broken, but the group that determines if it was broken or not is not the group that could fix it. So all we get is one less item in our Adventurer's Vault. Also I STILL think Sure Strike / Careful Attack need their core power improved among others. Plus not to mention developers have admitted that they didn't know how to make controllers in the first PHB.

As a community I think it's important to give Wizards the carrot of purchasing new material which we deem worthy. ( I have all 4ed material except the paragon tier adventures and dungeon delve, though I plan on getting the delve). That said I also think it's important to push back on them when they're not living up to their promises. We were told 4ed would see regular errata (which it has) and it would be a balanced system, yet there are clearly some under performing powers in the PHB. I do not want "new" powers to be the only solution, but we should retroactively see fixes to the PHB1.

I hate to do this, but look at WoW. They regularly update the powers of their classes through patches, sometimes drastically. I for one think it's a good thing.

What are your thoughts?

 

[WalterKovacs]

It's much easier to patch a video game, especially one that is played online, than a pen and paper game.

Retroactive fixes should be in terms of fixing things that don't work as intended, or that are too powerful. Upping the power level of underperforming powers is probably not the best idea, as new powers is effectively the same solution. The choice of sure strike and a better version or having just the better version ... at best there is a choice, at worst, it's effectively the same. You still only have a fixed number of powers at every level, so having more powers doesn't really change things. Replacing a choice that won't be made, or merely adding a new choice in addition to the one that won't be made, is effectively equal. And, they've at least made a few attempts at giving bonuses to those powers through feats like the gladiator feats, etc.

 

[DracoSuave]

I hate to do this, but look at WoW. They regularly update the powers of their classes through patches, sometimes drastically. I for one think it's a good thing.

What are your thoughts?

I think you need to base your comparisons and expectations on something a lot more appropriate to the media. Comparing the updating/errata/rules fixing/whatever-game-balance-is-based-on to a video game, or even an MMO, or even a game based on competition is unrealistic at best.

If you compare, instead, to other PnP games (with update schedules verging somewhere between once a year, and never) then you'll find that 4e's rules updates are, if anything, the most frequent in the business today.

So, you're complaining that the best in the business in this regard is not, in fact, working at unrealistic pace.

 

[Dice4Hire]

Well, let me start by saying that my groups and I play by what is written in the books, with our own interpretations of what needs to be toned down, and we pay little attention to WOTC's updates because it is just a pain to keep track of, and even more remember.

But that said, it is gratifying to see WOTC paying attention to their game and how it is being played. The errata is nice to have, as Customer Service is a bit unreliable, and it is good to have a set rulesbase, if I play online or in Living XXX or whatever.

The biggest problem I see withthe WOW example, is that updates on WOW are shoved down people's throats, even if they are ruels everyone wants to see. The changes are now how the rules work, and you cannot opt in or opt out. That is very different from 4E.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Upping the power level of underperforming powers is probably not the best idea, as new powers is effectively the same solution.

No it isn't. Replacement gets you a pool of equally good choices. Adding new (better) powers leaves you with a mix of better & worse choices, and it was explicitly a design goal of 4E (one I agreed with) to remove sub-optimal choices. This was a major problem with 3E, and I do not want to see it raising its ugly head again.

Leaving booby traps for the unwary is not cool.

I agree with the8bitdeity. WotC should absolutely update already published materials if they find design mistakes. They're already on the record for admitting that their conception of the Controller role was not as well developed as it should have been when PHB1 shipped and that the Wizard's powers are a bit off because of it.

We have the CB and the Compendium. They should use it to patch 4E just like WoW when necessary. I realize that won't patch the books, but a "fixed" CB/Compendium is better than no fix at all.

 

[Starfox]

I am alo very much in the no timmie powers camp. Precise Strike and most wizard at wills should be erratae'd rather than made obsolete by new options.

 

[DracoSuave]

They're already on the record for admitting that their conception of the Controller role was not as well developed as it should have been when PHB1 shipped and that the Wizard's powers are a bit off because of it. .

Specificly, they said that the controlling aspect of controlling at-wills weren't quite where they wanted, while the control aspect of encounter powers and dailies was spot on. As well, damaging at-wills were -also- where they wanted them.

So don't expect to see the at-wills for wizards made more controlling, rather, look for more controlling at-wills to be available.

Also, Sure Strike and Careful Strike aren't as bad as you're making them out to be. If Power Attack is a trap, then doing the opposite might not be a trap.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Specificly, they said that the controlling aspect of controlling at-wills weren't quite where they wanted ...

... which is why they should be fixed.

 

[cmbarona]

Just to pitch in my 2 cents:

I agree with the general sentiment about using updates more wisely. We don't want a 4.5 fiasco, so some judicious application of updates will save a lot of time and trouble, especially if they tackle these issues early.

So far, this sort of stuff looks easy enough to fix. But then, I might be wrong.

I'll start a list of "things we'd like to see corrected, and not through offering us new stuff, but by fixing the old, thank you very much" paired with "here's an easy updates to pitch in" entries:

• Attack and defense math. Fix: Add a line on levels 5, 15, and 25 to the level-gaining chart at the beginning of the PHB: "+1 to all attacks and defenses"
• Expertise Feats. Fix: given the above update, simply remove these.
• Sure Strike/Careful Attack. Fix: Update the powers themselves (however they need to be fixed)
• Wizard At-wills. Fix: Update the powers themselves (however they need to be fixed)

I don't have books with me, and I'm at work, so that's all I can think of off the top of my head. Others?

 

[keterys]

Fixing underpowered (especially drastically underpowered) abilities is really good for preventing people from screwing themselves, so I'd definitely like to see Careful and Sure Strike addressed.

Course, I'd also like to see Twin Strike (and multiple attacks in general) addressed, and I rather imagine that's far more than most people.