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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7929477" data-attributes="member: 12731">I find this argument disingenuous.This post was made in response to what led to it, namely "4E devs are now working at Paizo, so how come people refuse to see similarities between the two games?"(The above quote isn't the only place the argument "if you dislike 4E, you only do so because of its presentation" has been forwarded; I just took the instance I could find)Personally I think there exists a deep similarity between 4E and PF2 as regards design philosophy that goes right to the heart as to respective games popularity or lack thereof.No, I don't think Pathfinder 2 plays the same as 4E. And discussing superficial similarities in presentation misses the deeper point.Instead: Both games focus on the encounter. Both games are obsessed with balance. Neither game really trusts the GM.The difference between 3E, PF1 and 5E on one hand, and 4E and PF2 on the other, is that players aren't allowed to influence the power of their characters to any substantial degree. If everybody is special, nobody is. Sure, another way of saying this is the latter games make it much harder to build a crippled character, but I do not think this is what us gamers are asking for and I don't think this is what us gamers want.Besides, it's not that character imbalance is the crippling issue the design of 4E and PF2 think it is. Most games on the market couldn't care less about making sure that all character options are equal.While I personally think 5E could have made more of an effort to silo "ribbon feats" (Linguist, Keen Mind, ...) from "crunch feats" (Great Weapon Master, Sharpshooter) the fact some character choices are objectively complete garbage (and now I'm no longer talking about those feats) compared to others hasn't dented the edition's popularity at all.And having feats and options and magic items that really make a difference is mostly fun and cool and evocative. Not something that must be repressed and controlled, like in both 4E and PF2.tl;dr: I think the downfall of 4E was its overbearing controlling nature, and I see the same in PF2. This goes far deeper than merely "presentation", and even deeper than shallow gameplay comparisons.</blockquote>

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