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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Presentation vs design... vs philosophy
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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7932679" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Saelorn, this is why these conversations tend to be so frustrating.</p><p></p><p>Here is the thing. In the last 12 years I've seen statements like this and the "sameness" statement repeated.</p><p></p><p>There is only one answer to what is happening here.</p><p></p><p>User error.</p><p></p><p>User error in the same way that a GM constructing an uninteresting dungeon crawl in Moldvay is going to yield an extremely uninteresting experience, bereft of interesting decision-points at the Exploration Turn level, bereft of stimulating thematic puzzle-solving, and bereft of strategic overhead at the delve level.</p><p></p><p>Moldvay GMs could construct crappy dungeons experiences.</p><p></p><p>The solution?</p><p></p><p>Get better at your craft.</p><p></p><p>The same thing goes with 4e combats in creating/incentivizing movement, interesting terrain interactions with Forced Movement, and difficult decision-points in dealing with diverse interesting forces, their positioning with respect to each other and the terrain elements, control elements from Controllers (especially Solo Controllers) and how that interacts with all of the former, and their force multiplication capabilities within their "team."</p><p></p><p>It_is_utterly_impossible for (a) different classes to feel the same and (b) for their not to be interesting decision-points when dealing with a well-constructed battlefield + enemy force + interesting objective.</p><p></p><p>Unless...your GM is not good enough at their craft (and both DMGs do a pretty great job of describing how to do the above, and simple repetition and creativity should increase the process over time).</p><p></p><p>Its ok for people to struggle. User error is ok. What is not ok is to blame something/someone else and refuse to get better.</p><p></p><p>The same thing goes for 4e Skill Challenges. If you come away from the table saying "4e Skill Challenges are 'an exercise in dice rolling' "....then you need to work on your game. You need to develop a better ability to change the situation dynamically, create interesting thematic complications, escalate current ones, and develop your fail forward game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7932679, member: 6696971"] Saelorn, this is why these conversations tend to be so frustrating. Here is the thing. In the last 12 years I've seen statements like this and the "sameness" statement repeated. There is only one answer to what is happening here. User error. User error in the same way that a GM constructing an uninteresting dungeon crawl in Moldvay is going to yield an extremely uninteresting experience, bereft of interesting decision-points at the Exploration Turn level, bereft of stimulating thematic puzzle-solving, and bereft of strategic overhead at the delve level. Moldvay GMs could construct crappy dungeons experiences. The solution? Get better at your craft. The same thing goes with 4e combats in creating/incentivizing movement, interesting terrain interactions with Forced Movement, and difficult decision-points in dealing with diverse interesting forces, their positioning with respect to each other and the terrain elements, control elements from Controllers (especially Solo Controllers) and how that interacts with all of the former, and their force multiplication capabilities within their "team." It_is_utterly_impossible for (a) different classes to feel the same and (b) for their not to be interesting decision-points when dealing with a well-constructed battlefield + enemy force + interesting objective. Unless...your GM is not good enough at their craft (and both DMGs do a pretty great job of describing how to do the above, and simple repetition and creativity should increase the process over time). Its ok for people to struggle. User error is ok. What is not ok is to blame something/someone else and refuse to get better. The same thing goes for 4e Skill Challenges. If you come away from the table saying "4e Skill Challenges are 'an exercise in dice rolling' "....then you need to work on your game. You need to develop a better ability to change the situation dynamically, create interesting thematic complications, escalate current ones, and develop your fail forward game. [/QUOTE]
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