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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Presentation vs design... vs philosophy
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7932687" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>Whereas for me there is nothing less interesting than a great weapon fighter rerolling 1s and 2s or a duellist getting +2 to damage. For me the physical act of calculation is trivial. Either I am being made to focus a little on the arithmetic (as for the great weapon fighter), slowing things down for both me and everyone else at the table while not making a significant change to the outcome (making the whole thing negative and nails on a blackboard annoying) or if I get a +2 to damage from duellist I will include it on my character sheet and then proceed to ignore it, lumping it in with all the other bonuses. It doesn't affect any of the choices I make during play and doesn't do much to make me feel like a fighter other than in the sense of "Number go up". And neither help provide interesting descriptions for attacks.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile Tide of Iron <em>actually reflects the way I fight in reenactment combat</em>. Using my shield aggressively to get in my opponent's face and drive them back - and this is in no way magical. Not all my characters do this - but it's a fighting style I understand rather than one that involves walking up to my opponent and playing patty-cake until one of us has a number drop to zero.</p><p></p><p>Further Tide of Iron opens up options for both using the environment and for teamwork. For using the environment, unless you have a boring DM who makes every fight in a featureless room it opens up the mantra "monsters belong in their own pit traps" without making it an either with respect to pushing them or lowering their hit points. It also opens up teamwork in a whole lot of ways - from getting flanking to teamwork to push monsters into pit traps or bonfires to being able to push monsters off the wizard to allow the wizard to get some distance.</p><p></p><p>And this tactical aspect, thinking about positioning and how to actually carry out combat makes me feel a <em>lot </em>more like an expert fighter. Meanwhile fiddly and annoying +2s are fiddly and annoying.</p><p></p><p>And if you want to know why 4e fans are still pissed off there has been precisely <em>one </em>edition in which being a fighter wasn't simply about spamming an attack and then playing paty-cake with the monsters until someone's hit points hit zero. I don't begrudge you wanting to play a fighter I find an excercise in both boredom and being prevented from thinking the way I would think. Indeed I'm one of those who was glad when the Slayer was added to 4e even if there was precisely zero chance of me ever playing one.</p><p></p><p>But why in the name of the little black pig, just because you don't resonate with an approach, did it have to be removed from the game almost entirely? Why were people <em>that </em>vindictive against 4e just because people liked things they didn't? Why are 4e martial fans the one group left with thin gruel barely worthy of the name "fighter"? Does other people visualising their character in ways you don't actively harm your experience?</p><p></p><p>And just so I can understand what is so interesting about rerolling 1s and 2s as some sort of fighter?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7932687, member: 87792"] Whereas for me there is nothing less interesting than a great weapon fighter rerolling 1s and 2s or a duellist getting +2 to damage. For me the physical act of calculation is trivial. Either I am being made to focus a little on the arithmetic (as for the great weapon fighter), slowing things down for both me and everyone else at the table while not making a significant change to the outcome (making the whole thing negative and nails on a blackboard annoying) or if I get a +2 to damage from duellist I will include it on my character sheet and then proceed to ignore it, lumping it in with all the other bonuses. It doesn't affect any of the choices I make during play and doesn't do much to make me feel like a fighter other than in the sense of "Number go up". And neither help provide interesting descriptions for attacks. Meanwhile Tide of Iron [I]actually reflects the way I fight in reenactment combat[/I]. Using my shield aggressively to get in my opponent's face and drive them back - and this is in no way magical. Not all my characters do this - but it's a fighting style I understand rather than one that involves walking up to my opponent and playing patty-cake until one of us has a number drop to zero. Further Tide of Iron opens up options for both using the environment and for teamwork. For using the environment, unless you have a boring DM who makes every fight in a featureless room it opens up the mantra "monsters belong in their own pit traps" without making it an either with respect to pushing them or lowering their hit points. It also opens up teamwork in a whole lot of ways - from getting flanking to teamwork to push monsters into pit traps or bonfires to being able to push monsters off the wizard to allow the wizard to get some distance. And this tactical aspect, thinking about positioning and how to actually carry out combat makes me feel a [I]lot [/I]more like an expert fighter. Meanwhile fiddly and annoying +2s are fiddly and annoying. And if you want to know why 4e fans are still pissed off there has been precisely [I]one [/I]edition in which being a fighter wasn't simply about spamming an attack and then playing paty-cake with the monsters until someone's hit points hit zero. I don't begrudge you wanting to play a fighter I find an excercise in both boredom and being prevented from thinking the way I would think. Indeed I'm one of those who was glad when the Slayer was added to 4e even if there was precisely zero chance of me ever playing one. But why in the name of the little black pig, just because you don't resonate with an approach, did it have to be removed from the game almost entirely? Why were people [I]that [/I]vindictive against 4e just because people liked things they didn't? Why are 4e martial fans the one group left with thin gruel barely worthy of the name "fighter"? Does other people visualising their character in ways you don't actively harm your experience? And just so I can understand what is so interesting about rerolling 1s and 2s as some sort of fighter? [/QUOTE]
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