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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7933005" data-attributes="member: 87792">My problem here is that by your own definitions 4e trusts the DM more than either 3.0, 3.5, or 5e. And therefore your logic leads to the idea that Pathfinder 2e is making the right choice by not trusting the DM in the slightest.The game that meticulously shuts down any avenue to gain that extra +1 or +2 bonus is pretty obviously and pretty clearly 5e. Unless you are handing out magic swords, a +1 or +2 bonus is outside the design space of DMing in 5e - it's Advantage or nothing. There isn't even an advantage to be gained from flanking a foe (except by an optional rule where it's full Advantage, thus exhausting the entire GM suggested toolbox). Now that's controlling.Meanwhile 3.5 (and 3.0 and Pathfinder) hedge in the bonuses that can be handed out by using things like Touch and Flat Footed AC that are an absolute pain to work out, and it hedges in the DM with a huge collection of rules and modifiers to the point the designers admit that part of the point was controlling the DM because they were excessively cautious at the time of creation (and looked back later to ask "What have we done?"). Whether this is more or less controlling than "Advantage or nothing" is an open question.4e by contrast has the Combat Advantage status effect that can be handed out like candy in a way Advantage can't. It's only +2 for one thing and for another it's considered a common thing; the rogue (or anyone else) can get it through flanking or through attacking when they are hidden. Or so many other ways. And want to hand out something that isn't the vanilla Combat Advantage? 4e provides DMs with an entire mark-up language and benchmarks to do this. That's what the powers system is about and what the page 42 of the DMG/improvised rules and damage by level are about.As for game-breaking items, 4e had almost from the beginning a portable hole that works as in a Bugs Bunny cartoon rather than as an alternative to a bag of holding. Among the list of abilities that is simply handed out is a Monk's optional ability to wire-fu about 40 feet, counting as a flight action once per encounter. At second level. And the DMG came with artifact creation guidance.Now you probably are (understandably) looking at the endless tedious pages of +1-+6 items that are every bit as much 4e's version of filler as pages of prestige classes almost no one will ever use are 3.5's. The basic fact is that a +2 sword has never been interesting - and it would have saved a lot of time and boredom to start with inherent bonuses and not have a table under each sword showing six different possible levels so the book could be padded out. This is a place where 4e's presentation was (to put it bluntly) terrible.I'm not sure whether your problem here is that they didn't follow the lead of 4e in removing the gates that were present all over the place and getting rid of the "Air breathing mermaid" feats - or whether your problem here is that the players get to control what sort of cool stuff their characters can do.Welcome to D&D 3.X. It is this that 4e emphatically turned its back on - a 4e DM does not need to know what any feat does or the rules for any spell. That's all player side. The DM just needs the MM3 on a business card because PC and NPC rules are different.<img src="http://blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/mm3businessfront.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" />5e on the other hand returned closer to the 3.X way of doing things where Spell Like Abilities are a thing even if you don't need the over-proliferation of feats. And fortunately Spell Like Abilities are rare and normally (although not 100% of the time) the SLA is in the monster statblock and it's only to run a spellcaster you need to actively look the rules (in this case the spells) up in the PHB rather than having it right there in front of you. As is so often the case in the metrics you claim to care about 4e is the edition that actively empowers the DM.Yes, of course, there are no level gated class features or spells in 5e. Right.I know that "this issue simply doesn't exist" is intended as hyperbole - but it is to me absurd hyperbole. In any level based system the character level is a measure of appropriate power. You are literally here criticising Pathfinder 2 for being a level-based game in the same way as literally every edition of D&D has been since 1974.And on another note magic items and feats do not have to be the same level at all. I can imagine it being a very high level barbarian ability to make their skin as tough as steel - meanwhile the fighter can wear plate armour from level 1 that in practice does the same thing. Technology can make you special without needing magic or ridiculous levels of training.And your opening post might be a bit of a clue. You say that Paizo should have looked at the failure of 4e. Then you give as a critique a list of ways that Pathfinder 2 is not just closer to 5e than 4e but is the far side of 5e from 4e.Pathfinder 1 was a game that asked you to care about literally hundreds (almost 1500 not counting third party material) of little niggly feats. And it was that because 3.5 was a game that asked you to care about literally hundreds (just over 1500 in all) of little niggly feats. Your critique here is literally "Pathfinder 2 is following in the footsteps of Pathfinder 1".4e meanwhile was a game which had hundreds of feats (it ended up with just over 1500 in all as well), some of which were little and niggly (and no one ever took because of it) but the only feats it ever asked you to care about were those that helped you build your character the way you wanted; if it wasn't on your character sheet it wasn't relevant.  There was no list of "feat prerequisites" to get into prestige classes or paragon paths and there was no common list of feat chains like Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack/Expertise/Whirlwind Attack required to let you get at the good stuff.  And above all the DM wasn't required to use feats to build monsters let alone know what those feats did because the statblock wouldn't tell you.And this is why you are getting such strong pushback when you decide to tubthump against 4e. Everything you claim you want was something 4e did - and in most cases it was something 4e did better than 5e. Meanwhile from your description the problem with the design of Pathfinder II is that it appears to treat the design (rather than the presentation and the way the game was severely undercooked at launch) of 4e as toxic.</blockquote>

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