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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7934402" data-attributes="member: 6696971">2 first.Premise:"I think there exists a deep similarity between 4E and PF2 as regards design philosophy"If the above premise doesn't bear out a resemblance to "the actual play experience of 4e at the table..."I mean, if these two things aren't roughly equal, then (a) what low bar statement are we trying to tease out of the premise and, more importantly, (b) why is this low bar statement that we're teasing out of the premise even worthy of a post and then apparently controversial enough to stimulate 30 pages of subsequent conversation?Now 1:The burden of proof is on someone making a claim.  So, until the proof shows up that there was intentiful design philosophy which endowed a "deep similarity between 4e and PF2", the evidence that 4e advocates who weren't simultaneously PF2 advocates (along with the other aspects of extreme difference that I and others have mentioned) are not playing PF2 is pretty robust.Yes, there are some siloed kindred aspects of the two games.  But that is a far cry from the lead post premise.And honestly, I always have to wonder about how this outrage comes to be, in the same way that I wondered how the (truly staggering and embarrassing) scorched earth campaign against 4e came to be (that literally made the hobby uninhabitable...I still contest that the behavior of people during that era drove SIGNIFICANTLY more people away from the hobby than the actual game itself did).  It makes no sense.  The status quo is never going anywhere.  Just because a new game is out doesn't mean that your prior game is gone and iteration is, at its most fundamental level, changing the status quo.  If you don't like the changes, you don't have to stage a relentless peasants with torches and pitchforks revolt.  Just keep playing what you're playing or play something else (which is what I've always done)!The gatekeeping of TTRPGing (D&D in particular) is easily the worst aspect of our hobby.</blockquote>

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