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Presentation vs design... vs philosophy
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7935292" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>4e was pretty innovative design in some ways.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's not about narrating damage. It's about forced movement. Imagine if roughly one ogre attack in two came with a bull rush attached and the PC's minature was actively moved backwards on the battle map from the force of the blow unless they hit a wall. This on its own makes ogres feel big and forceful beyond what you do with the description. Indeed actively moving the minatures on a map from the force of blows frequently does more than any description <em>could. </em></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm an absolute fan of reskinning.</p><p></p><p>But as for the DMG homebrew rules, from memory (I don't have a DMG to hand) it's a 20(!) step process <a href="http://blogofholding.com/?p=7283" target="_blank">and one that apparently doesn't quite work or fit what WotC actually did</a>.</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile the mechanical part of the 4e guidance <a href="http://blogofholding.com/?p=512" target="_blank">fits on a business card</a></p><p></p><p><img src="http://blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/mm3businessfront.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p></p><p>I think the difference is telling. (If you're wondering about your saving throws, 4e made them into defences. If you're wondering about the skirmisher/controller/soldier/brute/artillery/lurker, they are different approaches used by monsters; a soldier is someone with a high AC who's frequently a blocker, artillery is anyone with a bow or basic attack magic from a distance. Visualise your monster and then pick the role.</p><p></p><p>It's also at this point worth pointing out that 4e was released undercooked - and the reason it's "Monster Manual 3 on a business card" is that they realised that average damage 8+level/2 from the original Monster Manual wasn't enough at high level and pumped it to 8+level.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The mechanics aren't actually simpler in 5e than 4e. If anything I'd say the reverse (even if 4e has too many small bonuses in a way 5e doesn't)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>When you have monsters with different roles (mixing brutes and artillery being standard) tactics become a whole lot more important. Artillery for the record generally does high damage at range and low in melee - get to them before they shoot you to pieces. You can do this in 5e but the game doesn't really encourage it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I really recommend <a href="http://apocalypse-world.com/" target="_blank">Apocalypse World</a> - but it comes from a <em>completely </em>different part of RPGs than D&D. It's basically taking the rhythm of freeform games, a post-apocalyptic setting, and the most common result being success with consequences. Well worth knowing - but there is a reason I compared it to a quad bike with nitrous oxide earlier in the thread.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I know <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> You don't come off as someone who's disagreeing so much as someone who wasn't there and doesn't understand what I'm finding to be missing.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7935292, member: 87792"] 4e was pretty innovative design in some ways. It's not about narrating damage. It's about forced movement. Imagine if roughly one ogre attack in two came with a bull rush attached and the PC's minature was actively moved backwards on the battle map from the force of the blow unless they hit a wall. This on its own makes ogres feel big and forceful beyond what you do with the description. Indeed actively moving the minatures on a map from the force of blows frequently does more than any description [I]could. [/I] I'm an absolute fan of reskinning. But as for the DMG homebrew rules, from memory (I don't have a DMG to hand) it's a 20(!) step process [URL='http://blogofholding.com/?p=7283']and one that apparently doesn't quite work or fit what WotC actually did[/URL]. Meanwhile the mechanical part of the 4e guidance [URL='http://blogofholding.com/?p=512']fits on a business card[/URL] [IMG]http://blogofholding.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/mm3businessfront.gif[/IMG] I think the difference is telling. (If you're wondering about your saving throws, 4e made them into defences. If you're wondering about the skirmisher/controller/soldier/brute/artillery/lurker, they are different approaches used by monsters; a soldier is someone with a high AC who's frequently a blocker, artillery is anyone with a bow or basic attack magic from a distance. Visualise your monster and then pick the role. It's also at this point worth pointing out that 4e was released undercooked - and the reason it's "Monster Manual 3 on a business card" is that they realised that average damage 8+level/2 from the original Monster Manual wasn't enough at high level and pumped it to 8+level. The mechanics aren't actually simpler in 5e than 4e. If anything I'd say the reverse (even if 4e has too many small bonuses in a way 5e doesn't) When you have monsters with different roles (mixing brutes and artillery being standard) tactics become a whole lot more important. Artillery for the record generally does high damage at range and low in melee - get to them before they shoot you to pieces. You can do this in 5e but the game doesn't really encourage it. I really recommend [URL='http://apocalypse-world.com/']Apocalypse World[/URL] - but it comes from a [I]completely [/I]different part of RPGs than D&D. It's basically taking the rhythm of freeform games, a post-apocalyptic setting, and the most common result being success with consequences. Well worth knowing - but there is a reason I compared it to a quad bike with nitrous oxide earlier in the thread. I know :) You don't come off as someone who's disagreeing so much as someone who wasn't there and doesn't understand what I'm finding to be missing. [/QUOTE]
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