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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
Presentation vs design... vs philosophy
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 7936322" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I do not know how 4e could be any more explicit that "Through your character you can interact with the game world in any way you want. The only limit is your imagination - and sometimes how high you roll on the dice." than using those exact sentences as the second and third sentences of the "How do you play" right in the introduction to the game. Except possibly to use examples of play where the players refer to what they are doing before the rules.</p><p></p><p>Oh wait. It could make a principle of "Simple rules, many exceptions" and tell you that many things break the rules in some way. Which when it is one of the <em>core principles </em>of the game means that 4e makes it very clear from first principles that what's given is a framework.</p><p></p><p>Or to put it simply tone is something different people take different ways and there is significant evidence that 4e is the single version of D&D that makes it <em>easiest </em>for the DM to improvise.</p><p></p><p>And I think this is a difference in how we read things; you see a collection of mechanics and think that rules are hard-coded. I see clear and obvious exception based design for everything presented and think that the game is therefore about exceptions.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>While in 4e it's clear that just about everything the PCs do is an exception to the core framework. Therefore I get the impression that the game is about exceptions and that it is both easy and encouraged to add more. </p><p></p><p>Then we turn to page 42 in the DMG which, as far as I know, is the <em>only </em>part of the DMG in any edition to give clear and consistant guidance in how you are supposed to start making exceptions. And then I get clear and easy to use monster creation rules that don't just make my monsters mechanically almost interchangeable other than the numbers are slightly different.</p><p></p><p>Which means that to me the tone of 4e is that you, as DM, are <em>supposed </em>to be tinkering with it. And you're given a toolkit to do so rather than just told to make random rulings.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Whereas I come out more empowered as I come out with good ways to do things.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Only if you're a supervillain and don't care about whether you break anything or anyone. Below (I hope) is Superman's classic "World Made of Cardboard" speech about how all his power means that it's impossible for him to cut loose.</p><p>[MEDIA=youtube]Cl_5UwS57X8[/MEDIA]</p><p></p><p>To quote another classic Superhero line "With great power comes great responsibility" - and that's the way it works for a lot of people. But as a DM I consider the powers of the DM <em>also </em>come with the responsibility of providing an experience where everyone will have a good time.</p><p></p><p>And for that, especially as a new GM, I want guidance in how this contraption of a game is <em>supposed</em> to work and what sort of bounds I should stick to most of the time because they won't break people.</p><p></p><p>I'm pretty sure you've internalised such rules yourself as you aren't actually a supervillain. And where you are having problems is that the rules you should normally stick to for DMing 4e aren't the ones you are used to. For me the rules I should normally stick to for 4e aren't the ones for oD&D, aren't the ones for Fate, aren't the ones for Apocalypse World, aren't the ones for Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. And I consider this a good thing because the experiences are different and that leads me and leads the group to different highs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It also empowers the DM to have guidance in how to make those rulings, especially when they are starting out. And it empowers the players to have some expectation of what those rulings are going to be as that leads to clearer understanding of the world.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 7936322, member: 87792"] I do not know how 4e could be any more explicit that "Through your character you can interact with the game world in any way you want. The only limit is your imagination - and sometimes how high you roll on the dice." than using those exact sentences as the second and third sentences of the "How do you play" right in the introduction to the game. Except possibly to use examples of play where the players refer to what they are doing before the rules. Oh wait. It could make a principle of "Simple rules, many exceptions" and tell you that many things break the rules in some way. Which when it is one of the [I]core principles [/I]of the game means that 4e makes it very clear from first principles that what's given is a framework. Or to put it simply tone is something different people take different ways and there is significant evidence that 4e is the single version of D&D that makes it [I]easiest [/I]for the DM to improvise. And I think this is a difference in how we read things; you see a collection of mechanics and think that rules are hard-coded. I see clear and obvious exception based design for everything presented and think that the game is therefore about exceptions. While in 4e it's clear that just about everything the PCs do is an exception to the core framework. Therefore I get the impression that the game is about exceptions and that it is both easy and encouraged to add more. Then we turn to page 42 in the DMG which, as far as I know, is the [I]only [/I]part of the DMG in any edition to give clear and consistant guidance in how you are supposed to start making exceptions. And then I get clear and easy to use monster creation rules that don't just make my monsters mechanically almost interchangeable other than the numbers are slightly different. Which means that to me the tone of 4e is that you, as DM, are [I]supposed [/I]to be tinkering with it. And you're given a toolkit to do so rather than just told to make random rulings. Whereas I come out more empowered as I come out with good ways to do things. Only if you're a supervillain and don't care about whether you break anything or anyone. Below (I hope) is Superman's classic "World Made of Cardboard" speech about how all his power means that it's impossible for him to cut loose. [MEDIA=youtube]Cl_5UwS57X8[/MEDIA] To quote another classic Superhero line "With great power comes great responsibility" - and that's the way it works for a lot of people. But as a DM I consider the powers of the DM [I]also [/I]come with the responsibility of providing an experience where everyone will have a good time. And for that, especially as a new GM, I want guidance in how this contraption of a game is [I]supposed[/I] to work and what sort of bounds I should stick to most of the time because they won't break people. I'm pretty sure you've internalised such rules yourself as you aren't actually a supervillain. And where you are having problems is that the rules you should normally stick to for DMing 4e aren't the ones you are used to. For me the rules I should normally stick to for 4e aren't the ones for oD&D, aren't the ones for Fate, aren't the ones for Apocalypse World, aren't the ones for Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. And I consider this a good thing because the experiences are different and that leads me and leads the group to different highs. It also empowers the DM to have guidance in how to make those rulings, especially when they are starting out. And it empowers the players to have some expectation of what those rulings are going to be as that leads to clearer understanding of the world. [/QUOTE]
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