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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrozenNorth" data-source="post: 7936510" data-attributes="member: 7020832">To get back to the original point of the thread (for which I apologize), the discussion of “sameyness” in 4e does point to a substantial difference in design goals between 4e and PF2.4e made a point of unifying all classes in the AEDU system, so all classes, for instance, receive an encounter power at 3rd level.PF2, on the other hand, goes out of its way to make it difficult to compare class advancement, by having savings throws, perception, training with weapons, training with armor and even skills advance at different rates for different classes.For those who don’t play PF2, an illustration is in order.  Like 3e, PF2 has 3 saves: Fortitude, Reflex, and Will.  Like skills, the saving throws progress from untrained to trained to expert, to master, to legendary.  Most classes begin with two saves at trained and one at expert.  Some have a different layout (like two expert and 1 trained).  Each save advances separately, at not always at the same level (so one of the classes may go from trained to expert at level 5, while others do the same at level 7).The overall effect is to make it very difficult to compare class progression, as even if two characters end up in the same place, one may have spent two levels during which their Will saves, for instance, were at a relative -2 to the other character.</blockquote>