Prestige Caster Level Progression, Assassin, Mystic Theurge.

[Koewn]

If this has been debated before (ad nausuem), I apologize for more nauseum.

OK - three related questions, each more perilous than before:

Jane is a Rogue 5, Wizard 3, Assassin 5.

She takes a level of Arcane Trickster, which gains her +1 spellcasting level in another spellcasting class. She qualifies for this by being able to cast 3rd level Assassin spells, which are Arcane.

Can she choose Assassin as that spellcasting class? It has it's own progression and spell list, and so is a 'spellcasting class', albeit a Prestige Class.

If that is legal, what happens when she's a Rogue 5, Wizard 3, Assassin 10, Arcane Trickster 1, and she is technically a Level 11 Assassin with regards to spellcasting? Does she gain no further progression, and just has a greater effective spellcaster level on her Assassin spells?

Ok, next. Bob is a Wizard 6, Alienist 6.

He takes a level of Loremaster, which grants a spellcasting level of a previous spellcasting class. If he chooses Alienist as that previous spellcasting class (which also grants a spellcasting level of a previous spellcasting class), that functionally just shunts back through to Wizard and grants him a spellcasting level of Wizard.

Now, our piece de resistance:

Gertrude is a Cleric 5, Wizard 5, Mystic Theurge 5.

She takes a level of Loremaster, which grants a spellcasting level of a previous spellcasting class. If she chooses Mystic Theurge as that class - well, that's a level of *both* a Arcane and Divine class. Functionally, it could shunt back and split into both a casting level of wizard and cleric.

Now, my ruling and explanation of all this is that you can only name a class or prestige class that has it's own spellcasting progression as a class that you choose to raise your spellcasting level in, so Jane would be OK taking a caster level of Assassin, but Gertrude has to go and choose either Wizard or Cleric, and Bob has to choose Wizard.

I may be wrong on being able to choose a prestige class with progression as a valid choice as well, so I'd like to hear if I am.

I'd also like to know if I'm wrong on the Mystic Theurge deal. While I'm pretty secure in my semantics, it would give solace to the people that decry the Theurge as weak that they could be a Clr3/Wiz3/Theurge10/Loremaster4 and cast as a 17th Wiz/Clr, I suppose, if it did stack like that.

On a slightly related question, I'd assume one could take the Practiced Spellcaster feat and apply it to a prestige class - so Jane could up the caster level on her Assassin spells. It seems like an awfully smart use of the feat for a dedicated Assassin with no other spellcasting. (and, also, one would not be able to apply Practiced Spellcaster to Mystic Theurge, or any other Prestige Class that does not have it's own progression, I'd assume)

Anyway. Thanks for all opinions.

Koewn

 

[noeuphoria]

For Jane - I'd say that's fine. Assassins are just as much casters as paladins or rangers are in my opinion. For raising Assassain caster level - have to look up rules for epic prestige class progression, since the book doesn't provide spell progression after 10th. For Bob, not that it matters, but I would rule that Alienist is not a spellcasting class. They are a prestige class that allows you to proceed in another spellcasting class, but as they have no spell list or spell progression, they are not a spelcasting class. Pointless arguement though, since as you pointed out it just bounces to the original class anyway, so if you were to progress in alienist, it would be just like you'd progressed in wizard. Same arguement for last example. MT is not itself a spellcasting class, loremaster couldn't raise it. Otherwise, everyone could just use some other prestige class to extend MT another 4 levels.

 

[reanjr]

I always took it to mean classes only. Not prestige classes.

I could be wrong but it would certainly clear up the ambiguity.

As for the assassin going over level 10, I'd say tough luck. There are some prestige classes that do not require casting experience that grant you +1 existing class level spellcasting. If you don't have a class already that has spellcasting, you don't benefit from the ability. I'd say the same goes for if you choose a prestige class and go over.

Optionally, you could then (and only then) allow the character to start applying the bonus spellcasting to a different spellcasting class.

If you do allow casting to be applied to prestige classes, it seems a bit unreasonable to disallow certain prestige classes (like Mystic Theurge). It's up to the individual DM, but I think it should apply. Of course, it just points to the fact that Mystic Theurge is overpowered. But if you allow Mystic Theurge, you should allow another class to add levels to it.

Mystic Theurge: Treat as sorcerer, but add a level of divine casting too!! :/

 

[andargor]

Alienist, Mystic Theurge and the like are not spellcasting classes. They do not have their own spell lists. They merely grant +1 level to an existing spellcasting class, such as Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, and yes, Assassin.

As for Jane, IMHO until character level 21, she would have an effective caster level of 11 for Assassin for level-dependent benefits, but no additional spell slots. At character level 21, she would gain the benefit of the Epic Assassin spell slot progression.

EDIT: Darn, I was wrong: no additional spells per day, even at CL 21.

Spells: The assassin's caster level is equal to his or her class level. The assassin's number of spells per day does not increase after 10th level.

Andargor

 

[Koewn]

If you don't have a class already that has spellcasting, you don't benefit from the ability. I'd say the same goes for if you choose a prestige class and go over.

The one thing I recall on that (at least the only other time I've seen it) is that the Defenders of the Faith version of the Contemplative gave divine spellcasting progression, but didn't require the ability to cast divine spells. As I recall the wording, it stated that you'd just start casting as a first level cleric at the first level of Contemplative.

I always liked that idea of a Expert or Aristocrat leveling into Contemplative as a mechanism for the non-adventuring clergy. Ah well...hm. That'd almost be an interesting mechanic - the NPC Prestige Class. Eliminate Adept and go from War/Exp/Com/Aristo to Priest, Mage, Theif, or Man-at-Arms....sounds like I just reinvented d20 Modern. Heh.

Koewn

 

[Kerrick]

Now, my ruling and explanation of all this is that you can only name a class or prestige class that has it's own spellcasting progression as a class that you choose to raise your spellcasting level in...

I agree - no claiming classes that give "+1 spellcasting level" are spellcasting classes. I'm of two minds about declaring the rule applies to core classes only - the DM would be totally justified in ruling either way. If you rule that PrCs are valid, then I'd say the assassin could gain 11th-level spellcasting ability (although WHY you'd want to do that is beyond me...). Course, in our campaign we don't have to worry about it - our house rule states that there are no epic levels for PrCs.

 

[Koewn]

If you rule that PrCs are valid, then I'd say the assassin could gain 11th-level spellcasting ability (although WHY you'd want to do that is beyond me...).

Well, in the case of the Assassin, let's say, and the Practiced Spellcaster feat or Arcane Trickster - We'll say I'm a Rogue 5/Assassin 10/Trickster 5.

If I would rule that the Practiced Spellcaster feat and the Arcane Trickster "+1 spellcasting level" would apply to the Assassin levels, I'd have an assassin that, while he doesn't have any more spells, has an effective caster level of 19 with his Assassin spells (+4 Prac. Spellcaster, +5 Trickster, +10 Assassin levels).

That's a 19 round greater invisibility as opposed to 10 rounds. Most of the assassin's spells are utility or buffs, and a lot of those are duration based.

That's a good thing for an assassin. 9 more rounds - that's almost a full minute of extra time to get in or out. Or, two more death attacks. (3 rds study, 1 rd attack, 8 rds for two)

(although the combination of the Trickster's "Impromptu Sneak Attack" and the Assassin "Death Attack" make me giggle - how can it be impromptu if it takes 3 rounds of study? Hm?)

It's really an interesting effect, I think, and I think it should be valid, since the prestige classes with the 4-level spellcasting progression don't really get a lot of damage-die spells (as far as I've seen).

I really should start a second thread just about this part.

Koewn

 

[Li Shenron]

Just let "+1 spellcasting level" apply only to classes which actually have there own spellcasting progression, and not to classes which grant "+1 spellcasting level" as well.

This way it would be fine to increase the Assassin's own spellcasting abilities. At level 10, his spellcasting gets maxed-out and you can treat the effective level 11 just as you would do if that was reached because of epic levels, that is: no more spells/day or spells known, but caster level increases.

 

[Kerrick]

(although the combination of the Trickster's "Impromptu Sneak Attack" and the Assassin "Death Attack" make me giggle - how can it be impromptu if it takes 3 rounds of study? Hm?)

Because one's a sneak attack, and one's a death attack - they're not the same thing, and they shouldn't be combined.

It's really an interesting effect, I think, and I think it should be valid, since the prestige classes with the 4-level spellcasting progression don't really get a lot of damage-die spells (as far as I've seen).

I really should start a second thread just about this part.

Huh?

 

[Saeviomagy]

It works this way.

You have two numbers. You've got your arcane caster level and your divine caster level. These numbers are like hitpoints or skill ranks or whatever.

Mystic theurge increases both of these numbers. Most PrC's only increase one number.

They don't increase the bonuses that each other gives. They apply to the numbers.

There. easy.