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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dark Dragon" data-source="post: 6292011" data-attributes="member: 1115">Thanks! I try to view a point from different angles before making a decision (been too much into scientific work, I guess <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> )Well put! But there is a difference between spellcasting and using skills. A spell provides some sort of answer, being right or just leading off the track, as we have discussed earlier. This answer is given by the DM (who needs to consider the limitations of the spell at that very moment!). Period. This strongly reminds me of some NCIS episodes, were a lot of the case is solved within the lab and using computers. All the technical equipment is somewhat parallel to spell casting. Yes, it can be foiled, but rarely is so, instead it depends on interpretation of the data. In the end, the NCIS team moves out and captures the evil guy. Little social interaction with outsiders, most of the funny social stuff is going on within the team. Still nice, and I suppose similar fun is going on within a party of adventurers.This is the other point (the first is the race of arms) that I dislike about many divination spells: they remove some part of the role playing game, and simply serve as sort of a shortcut (my impression). This is even more tempting in my group, where we now use spell points instead of spell slots. Admittedly this is a weakness of our homebrew system (and forced some changes of certain spells), but divination magic was overused even when we played AD&D and D&D 3.x by the RAW.Using skills may involve opposed checks like Bluff vs. Sense Motive, Intimidate vs. Will save, Diplomacy, Heal vs. Poison effects, and so on. In addition, it can be used more often than spells, and the DM is not forced to remember the limits of all divination spells, but may give more or less hints as he sees fit during social (i.e. skill-based) interaction. Of course the DM could give the evil guy a high rank in Bluff and other skills... but maybe one of the henchmen of the bad guy is not as good in Bluff, or is more easily intimidated. The increased competence of the PCs is represented by higher skill ranks plus a wider spell selection and special abilities. It happened now and then that the PCs used disguising spells and/or familiars to observe potential suspects or even trick them into speaking about things that only the murderer or kidnapper could know. This required some good social skills and a proper spell for support now and then. If the selection of spells is reduced, players become more creative in using the remaining spells and skills to proceed; at least it is my impression. In earlier D&D 3.x days, social skills IMG were barely increased: Gather Information, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Diplomacy were mostly very low in ranks. At least some players now invest more ranks in these skills (also thanks to the extra +2 skill points per level, and removal of the cross-class skill barrier in our homebrew system).Very good that you raised this point. Admittedly, I often forget that many deities are not of the "greater" status, and don't know everything. Your example lays it out in a very nice way. The clerics IMG had often however a greater deity as a patron: Kelemvor, Lathander, Mystra, Tempus. I see that Lathander may not be interested that much about a guy murdered at night in a dark dungeon, but this is different if a cleric of Kelemvor investigates the case and uses a Commune spell. A cleric or paladin of Helm (the guardian) is also not that far away from unraveling crimes. If you DM a group with a high-priest of Kelemvor and a paladin/cleric of Helm, Commune is just a very handy spell to get some answers about the untimely death of a person. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Yes, if I would be interested in guilt in the first place, you are right. If I'm interested in who developed the plan to kill the person, I as a DM would give an answer other than "Unclear", i.e., "Yes", "No", or a cryptic answer. Depending on the scenario.  At least it forces the DM to think quickly <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />  I have to disagree here. Visiting an oracle can be a side quest of its own, convincing it to help with answers involves role playing, and to use the answers given to achieve something important is again a different point. Oracles are a part of some fantasy stories, and even in real history they were consulted to help with problems, like the oracle of Delphi. Some movies gave impressions about oracles, like in 300, Serenity, or the 13th Warrior. The oracle of OotS is another nice idea, and even the evil guy involved in the murder may have asked an oracle before <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> It does not need to be logically consistant, I tend to interpret an oracle as a gifted person, but less as a person with classes in x and y. They somehow have a different understanding about the world and time, which cannot be explained by logic.Good idea, XP loss is always a good way to make players thinking about if it is worth to use the spell. But as long as "win-button" spells are available, players will use it... especially if some players are infected by munchkinism again and again (as IMG). And they will be frustrated if the DM interprets the spell in a different way and is not giving the information the players asked for.Agreed, and there was little discussion IMG about Augury, Omen of Peril, or Weather Eye. They weren't used for years, and restricting access didn't influence the game so far.</blockquote>

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