Problems with Bardic Music Fascinate ability

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
I think the bard could probably have spent further music uses on suggesting to the BBEG not to worry about his friends, which would have allowed them to buff and attack.
 

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Jhulae

First Post
ElectricDragon said:
It doesn't say "casting a damaging spell", it says "casting a spell."

Ciao
Dave

I'd agree with Dave. Once any spell is cast in that situation, the Fascinate ends.

Now, if they took the time just to surround the BBEG, without closing, that might not break it.. but in most situations, even being surrounded is a threatening gesture.
 

Herpes Cineplex

First Post
Yeah, especially considering the circumstances here. If the party recognizes the BBEG, odds are the BBEG recognizes the party. And if he recognizes them, he has to know they're his enemies, right? I mean, on some level, he has to know that they didn't come just to sing him a song.

If it's just the bard there singing away (or if the bard is the only person the BBEG gets to sense, thanks to good Hide/Move Silently rolls or Invisibility or what have you), then the party can get away with flanking him and casting spells on each other and the like. But if he sees or hears anyone else closing in around him or casting spells or giving him significant glances and fingering their weapons, I'd hope he'd be a smart enough BBEG to realize that he's about to get dogpiled and will react appropriately. Namely, by no longer being Fascinated and by beginning the fight.

--
or by running away, which he should do anyway since he's outnumbered
ryan


EDIT TO ADD:
CalrinAlshaw said:
If the BBEG sees someone casting ANY spell, and doesn't know any spellcraft, or have skill to identify the spell, then I would say he would construe that as a hostile act.
Yeah, and I'd go even further with this: if he does have Spellcraft and knows that the party is casting buffing spells and protective magic, even if he's never seen them before in his entire life, he's going to see this as a hostile act. They're clearly getting ready for a fight, and it won't take him too many guesses to figure out who it is they intend to be fighting. ;)
 
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CalrinAlshaw

First Post
If the BBEG sees someone casting ANY spell, and doesn't know any spellcraft, or have skill to identify the spell, then I would say he would construe that as a hostile act. He has no idea what type of spell you are casting.

Calrin Alshaw
 

Lord Pendragon

First Post
CalrinAlshaw said:
If the BBEG sees someone casting ANY spell, and doesn't know any spellcraft, or have skill to identify the spell, then I would say he would construe that as a hostile act. He has no idea what type of spell you are casting.

Calrin Alshaw
I disagree. As far as he's concerned, they could be casting healing on themselves, or healing on him even. There's no way for the BBEG to know. Not every spell is hostile.

To go even further, I disagree that buffing spells are hostile actions. They could just as easily be defensive measures, which are not the same as hostile actions. YMMV.
 

Jhulae

First Post
Lord Pendragon said:
I disagree. As far as he's concerned, they could be casting healing on themselves, or healing on him even. There's no way for the BBEG to know. Not every spell is hostile.

To go even further, I disagree that buffing spells are hostile actions. They could just as easily be defensive measures, which are not the same as hostile actions. YMMV.

Well, fortunately, the description says 'spells being cast'. The fact is that the fascinate effect allows for things to break it, spells being cast is one of them. Doesn't specify what spells.

The concious mind may be fascinated, but the subconscious mind is saying "Hey... wait a minute... something's not right..."

All I know, is that if I were surrounded by a group of people I didn't know, nor requested to be there, and they suddenly started casting spells around me, I'd be worried about what they're up to.
 

Lord Pendragon

First Post
Jhulae said:
All I know, is that if I were surrounded by a group of people I didn't know, nor requested to be there, and they suddenly started casting spells around me, I'd be worried about what they're up to.
That's the beauty of magic. You'd probably be worried if a vampire told you to bend your neck a little to the side and pull away your collar, but for some reason... ;)

As far as the citation about casting a spell, the beginning part of that sentence is "any obvious threat". Casting a Disintegrate spell, if the BBEG knows what that is, is an obvious threat. Casting Bull's Strength isn't, and thus, IMO, doesn't apply.
 
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Lord Pendragon said:
That's the beauty of magic. You'd probably be worried if a vampire told you to bend your neck a little to the side and pull away your collar, but for some reason... ;)

As far as the citation about casting a spell, the beginning part of that sentence is "any obvious threat". Casting a Disintegrate spell, if the BBEG knows what that is, is an obvious threat. Casting Bull's Strength isn't, and thus, IMO, doesn't apply.
If you read the middle and ending parts of that sentence, you'll see that examples of "any obvious threat" are given. One of those is "casting a spell" - any spell.
 

Vaxalon

First Post
I'll chime in and throw my support with the majority.

This BBEG got the shaft in this encounter. The spells should have broken the effect, and the surrounding should have, as well.
 

BSF

Explorer
Lord Pendragon said:
I disagree. As far as he's concerned, they could be casting healing on themselves, or healing on him even. There's no way for the BBEG to know. Not every spell is hostile.

To go even further, I disagree that buffing spells are hostile actions. They could just as easily be defensive measures, which are not the same as hostile actions. YMMV.

If the potential target has no ranks in spellcraft, then I base their presumption on general experience. If you are dealing with somebody that has only ever had healing spells cast on them, they will have a different perception of the threat potential of a spell than somebody that regularly gets fried by fireballs. In many cases, magic is frightening and many people assume that if you are casting spells at them, you intend to harm them.

In this case, if the target were fascinated, I would apply the -4 to the spellcraft check, as well as the -4 to other checks such as spot and listen. If the target recognizes the spell, then he will make his assumptions based on what he knows of the spell and the person casting it.

If the target has any hostile experience with magic, and does not recognize the spell, then he is going to assume hostile intent.

If the target knows the PC's, and has any inkling of why the PC's are there, then there is likely to be an assumption of hostility no matter what they might be casting.

I do not consider this to be nerfing the bard at all. It was a clever idea, but in my opinion, the rest of the party blew it. They didn't try to hide while they buffed up? They didn't take any precautions to keep the opponent from trying to ascertain their intentions? This is just silly and I would be torqued to have my allies undermine my efforts in that manner.

And yes, I have RP'd out a similar situation where I actually managed to disengage with a red dragon so we could safely retreat. That is, until the ranger decided he had to use that opportunity to shoot the dragon with an arrow, thus negating all my hard work to save our hides from an otherwise disasterous situation. It was some cool RP, but my character was quite upset. The RP efforts of the other PC were in-character, and did not help resolve the situation. But, to this day, my character does not completely trust the other PC.

It was cool RP and an interesting development. Mostly, I think it came out of the player just spacing out the conversation we had a month earlier on different tactics we could use and what not to do in some situations. But, it made for a cool in-game moment.

I'm off track. My point is that the idea was interesting and could have been successful if executed in a different manner. But, as presented, I would not have allowed it to have as much success as it did.
 

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