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Message: <blockquote data-quote="takyris" data-source="post: 1480044" data-attributes="member: 5171">So you're comparing a guy with the maximum strength possible, and comparing him to an average-Dex guy with a handgun?Using this logic, I could take an exceptional kobold with a Strength of 13, put him next to a human with a Strength of 10, and prove that kobolds are stronger than humans.Now, for the record, I agree with some of your scaling issues.  I like Double Tap, because it solves many of those issues, but I also like M&M's more flexible Power Attack, which doesn't specify a melee attack -- and which adds Accurate Attack (opposite of Power Attack, hit more often but for less damage) and All-Out Attack (opposite of Expertise, hit more often but take a penalty to Defense).  Again, um.  You're comparing a 5th-level strong hero melee-attacking with Power Attack to the same guy who isn't allowed to use Double-Tap?  That's silly.  Double-Tap is Power Attack for guns.  Burst Fire is Power Attack for big guns.  And you're adding a range penalty as an artificial handicap on the gun.  Again, why?  EDIT: Whoops -- disconnected that Desert Eagles have 40-foot range.  Leaving it in for clarity if quoted, but disregard:"You could also say, "Oh, and in both cases, we're attacking an opponent from behind a door, so the melee guy is at a -4 to hit from cover, but the handgun guy can shoot from behind cover without penalty."  Your example is skewed."  And beyond that, nobody gets Power Attack without at least a 13 Strength, since it's a prereq for the feat.A more logical comparison would be, say, relevant score of 16 (start with 15, bump at 4th), and two feats beyond proficiency.  The Sword Guy can go with Power Attack and Weapon Focus (or two other feats of your choice).  The Gun Guy can go with Point Blank Shot and Double-Tap.Against Defense 10:Sword: BAB+5, +3 Str, +1 Focus = +9, Damage 2d6+4, average 11, need 2 to hit11 x 95% chance of hitting = 10.45 Power Attack 5: Average of 16, need 6 to hit16 x 75% chance of hitting = 12Gun: BAB+5, +3 Dex, +1 PBS = +9, Damage 2d6+1, average 8, need 2 to hit8 x 95% chance of hitting = 7.6Double-Tap: Average of 11.5, need 3 to hit11.5 x 90% chance of hitting = 10.35Now, forget defense 10.  Put it against a Defense they'll actually be aiming at in their game.  How about Defense 15?Sword: +9 to hit, average 11, need 6 to hit11 x 75% chance of hitting = 8.25Power Attack 5: Average 16, need 11 to hit16 x 50% chance of hitting = 8Gun: +9 to hit, Average 8, need 6 to hit8 x 75% = 6Double-Tap: Average 11.5, need 8 to hit11.5 x 65% = 7.475Now, how about Defense 20?Sword: +9 to hit, average 11, need 11 to hit11 x 50% chance of hitting = 5.5Power Attack 5: Average 16, need 16 to hit16 x 25% = 4Gun: +9 to hit, average 8, need 11 to hit8 x 50% = 4Double-Tap: Average 11.5, need 13 to hit11.5 x 40% = 4.6And even that is pretty rough, since it doesn't take into account criticals (the sword will pull a bit further ahead there).  What it shows, in its own cheap-quick way, is that a greatsword is indeed a little bit better than the average handgun (note that I used a normal 2d6 handgun instead of the 2d8 Desert Eagle), provided that you are in a situation where you can carry around a greatsword without trouble, where you can close in with an opponent and have said opponent choose to close in with you despite seeing your greatsword, where no environmental factors are stopping you from engaging in melee combat, and where no cover is available.I welcome you into my mobster campaign.  You can be my right-hand man as we go into negotiations with the Carliotti family.  Now, matters become unpleasant, I'll want you to... I'm sorry, are you strapping on a greatsword?The average d20M gun does approixmately as much damage as a greatsword.  And it can be used from behind cover without penalty, and at a range.  How much more do you want?  If you treat the game like D&D, charging in close and never using cover, then yeah, guns are gonna suck -- and you're going to eat a LOT of damage getting to those people.  Your optimistic charging greatsword character is one good roll on a 3d6 double-tap away from a massive damage save.</blockquote>

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