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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WaterRabbit" data-source="post: 1487566" data-attributes="member: 2445">I believe that math, specifically statistics, are fairly neutral and help provide clarity on many issues – but perhaps that is just my analytical background.  I know statistics can be skewed, but I  consciously try to avoid that.  The observation I have made is that all ranged weapons (bows, crossbows, firearms, thrown weapons) become much less dangerous once a character has reached 3rd level in d20 games in general.  I have used statistics to help me determine if that observation has any merit.I think that we all recognize that you could slash at least 4 times if not more in the d20 system, but only at high levels of expertise.  I think that we also realize there is some abstraction to the system.  I don’t believe a system in which we throw more dice per attack round is better – it is probably more tedious to play. If there is any “Myth of the Gun” it is this one.  How often do either of these situations happen ?  Could you provide an estimate – 1 in 100, 1 in 1000 ?  If you have an estimate do you have a source for it ?  It also happens that people fall from airplanes thousands of feet above the surface and live – without injury no less.  However, I can only vaguely recall of two occurrences.I am personally not interested in the “Myth of the Gun”.  I am looking at two weapon systems in the game.  The ranged weapon rules as is would certainly be much more useful if most combats took place at range.  However, my experience has been to the contrary.  In all games I have been a participant, combat takes place at 60 feet or less most of the time.  Perhaps 10% of the time it has taken place at more than 100 yards.  It is the same reason vehicle feats are not that useful.  How often does vehicle combat really occur ?  Once in every four session if you are lucky.Unfortunately, the statistics don’t bear you out.  A 5th level character firing at AC 15 using Double Tap does 8.33 points of damage on average (with a 2d6 weapon at point blank range, 10.5 for a 2d8 weapon).  Hardly forcing MDT saves more often than not.Let’s change the situation.  Your character is in a room facing a strong guy with a katana and a fast guy with a MAC Ingram M10 machine pistol.  There is lots of cover in the room but anywhere you go in the room the melee guy can get at your character.  By spending your last action point you can remove one of your opponents.  Which one should you remove ?  That is the question I initially set out to answer. I am sorry but this argument does not hold water with me.  In my experience, most things that have been designed by committee are usually worse than what one or two people create.  And just as obviously there would have been no need for d20 3E or d20 modern for that matter if 2E and its spin-offs were the be all end all.  Games constantly evolve – that is their nature.  It is the nature of gamers to try and find better ways to do things while still keeping them fun.The other thing I was trying to show here is that the statement “guns are the great equalizer” is not true for d20 modern IF a melee character has the ability to place the gun wielding character into melee combat.  Hiding behind cover does not help that much against someone using a melee weapon.  And because of the non-simultaneous nature of combat it is much more likely that a melee character will be causing MDTs.  Now there are many, many reasons not to play a melee based character in d20 modern.  However, not all NPCs are so accommodating – especially if you play Urbane Arcana or some other modern/fantasy blend.To tell the truth I would be much more interested in a system that did a dn+n for firearms than including recoil or other such rules.  This would raise the average damage from 7 to 10.5 (for a d6 based weapon) while keeping the maximum damage the same and the number of dice thrown in a round the same.  It would also keep combat somewhat abstract while placing ranged weapons on an even footing with melee weapons – not superior but even.  This thread is titled “Problems with firearms?” after all is it not ?</blockquote>

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