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<blockquote data-quote="racoffin" data-source="post: 4404215" data-attributes="member: 12764">No, I'd suggest that breaking of the game often occurs when gamers attempt to take the rules and stretch them as far as they will go. The letter of the rules can be followed exactly and still break the spirit of the rules. the designers don't often take into account that some gamers will sit down and mathematically work out the absolute best build they possibly can. They try to make a balanced game and don't often take into consideration that if you go to what some may consider extremes you can turn even the most basic spell or ability into some monstrosity.As far as the DM not being able to say no or it being a matter of power, I disagree. If the players are unwilling to deal with reasonable guidelines and world builds, then the DM isn't doing themselves or the players any favors by letting them run wild.Eric Wiener/Paradigm said something over on the Witch Hunter thread that really struck home with me and seems to illustrate what I am trying to say with regards to this:I think that the fact that some fairly sharp gamers were willing to nominate us as Best Rules should indicate that the game is playable. Having designed and published gaming product for many years now, I've come to realize that anything that does not fit a person's perception of balance will not just be described as &quot;too good&quot;, it will be described as game-breaking-play-ruining-anyone-that-doesn't-use-this-is-an-idiot-what-the-hell-were-you-thinking-you-morons bad. The simple fact is, no matter how smart you are, no matter how skilled your play testers are, you are massively outnumbered by players that want to get the most out their characters.D&amp;D, be it 3E, 4E, OD&amp;D, or 12E, is certainly playable out of the box. Does whichever edition address everthing for everyone? Quite possibly not; however that doesn't make the edition not playable by any stretch.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="racoffin, post: 4404215, member: 12764"] No, I'd suggest that breaking of the game often occurs when gamers attempt to take the rules and stretch them as far as they will go. The letter of the rules can be followed exactly and still break the spirit of the rules. the designers don't often take into account that some gamers will sit down and mathematically work out the absolute best build they possibly can. They try to make a balanced game and don't often take into consideration that if you go to what some may consider extremes you can turn even the most basic spell or ability into some monstrosity. As far as the DM not being able to say no or it being a matter of power, I disagree. If the players are unwilling to deal with reasonable guidelines and world builds, then the DM isn't doing themselves or the players any favors by letting them run wild. Eric Wiener/Paradigm said something over on the Witch Hunter thread that really struck home with me and seems to illustrate what I am trying to say with regards to this: [INDENT]I think that the fact that some fairly sharp gamers were willing to nominate us as Best Rules should indicate that the game is playable. Having designed and published gaming product for many years now, I've come to realize that anything that does not fit a person's perception of balance will not just be described as "too good", it will be described as game-breaking-play-ruining-anyone-that-doesn't-use-this-is-an-idiot-what-the-hell-were-you-thinking-you-morons bad. The simple fact is, no matter how smart you are, no matter how skilled your play testers are, you are massively outnumbered by players that want to get the most out their characters.[/INDENT] D&D, be it 3E, 4E, OD&D, or 12E, is certainly playable out of the box. Does whichever edition address everthing for everyone? Quite possibly not; however that doesn't make the edition not playable by any stretch. [/QUOTE]

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