Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kobold Stew" data-source="post: 7175034" data-attributes="member: 23484">I want to think about illusions.Illusion spells are tricksy, and are inevitably subject both to player creativity and DM judgement. My sense is that there is no agreement about how they work, and want to think about what are the legitimate uses of spells from this school. And this leads to problems.I’m thinking specifically of Minor Illusion (cantrip), Silent Image (level 1), and Major Image (level 3), but there are implications for Hallucinatory Terrain (level 4), Programmed Illusion (level 6), Project Image (level 7). With each of these spells, the player defines some sort of image created. If the enemy interacts with it physically, it is revealed to be an illusion. If a creature discerns the illusion, it becomes possible to see through it (where it presumably no longer has an effect). Finally, an enemy can use an action to attempt to discern the illusion through an Intelligence (Investigation) check. The first thing to note is how the three spells scale. Minor: 5’ cube, affects either sight or sound. 1 minute, no concentration. Objects only.Silent: 15’ cube, affects sight only. 10 minutes, concentration. Object or creature.Major: 20’ cube, affects all senses but no damage. 10 minutes, concentration. Object or creature.The variables therefore are size, senses affected, duration, and type of thing represented.Specialist Illusionists gain the ability to amp up Minor Illusion (sight and sound, at level 2) and to change the nature of the illusion after it has been cast (for each of these three spells, at level 6). The upper level spells have specific uses, but are not for creative illusions in combat.Tricksy elements. Let’s start with two basic uses in combat (I know there are lots of non-combat uses of illusions; I’m not thinking about them for now).Cover. I am in a ranged combat and cast any of these spells to make a defensive barricade, no longer than 5’ wide and 5’ tall. Poof. Maybe I allow myself arrow slits, or a peekaboo window. Do I have 3/4 cover? I think I do, until someone interacts with it. That means they have -5 to hit me. Problems:* An enemy fires an arrow at me anyway. If they hit me, have they interacted with the illusion? No. If they miss me, have they interacted with it? Probably, but we don’t want any weirdness that interaction happens if you only interact if you come within 5 of the target number. Does any miss then count as interacting? Does the enemy have any chance to hit? Already things are subjective.* Further, if the enemy does hit me (after -5), I make a concentration check if it’s a level 1 or 3 illusion, but not if it’s a cantrip. That also seems lame. Why would anyone use anything other than Minor Illusion to generate cover, except to make something 15’ or 20’ wide?* What about choosing to disbelieve (make an Int (investigation) check). That uses an action, but (unlike attacking) has no ability to do me damage. It also can fail (and is more likely to do so, in most cases). I see no reason someone would choose to disbelieve. * Maybe we need to bring in knowledge of spells. Does a successful Arcana check (not as an action) allow someone to know that there are no spells that could have brought this into existence except by being an illusion? * Once one of the enemies has seen through the illusion, and they tell their friends, there is still no benefit for the friends, who must also somehow interact or disbelieve. * What about my allies? They know I am an illusionist, and have seen my defensive barricade before. Can they see through it? Do they need to disbelieve? What if I have told them (maybe telepathically) that “I’m casting an illusion”? None of this feels satisfactory to me. If it is fun (rule of awesome, etc.), it is only fun for the caster, and it would not be if an enemy caster did it to the party. Distraction. So I’m in combat, and I see one enemy, a presumed spellcaster, hanging back. I cast an illusion of a brick wall in front of him, or a swarm of silent bees around his head. He knows or suspects it’s an illusion. Is my illusion (a 0- or 1-level spell) enough to shut him down for a turn, while he “interacts”? Is casting a fireball beyond where you can see (i.e. on me) interacting with an illusion at him? I don’t think so. Problems. * Is this a fair way to shut someone down for a full turn? Is it a more effective way to shut down a specific individual than color spray? Is there any way around this? Can a BBEG spellcaster consistently be occupied by a repeatedly cast cantrip? (which, given the players have multiple actions available to them, could be very powerful). * Again, what about my allies? Can they get past the swarm of bees unaffected? Apparently. And do incoming arrows from my side create “interaction” to disempower the illusion for the enemy?  There are other issues.Repeat castings. An enemy disbelieves the illusion. So I cast it again. As a DM, I’d give them at a minimum a bonus to save, but is this even right? What if it’s the same illusion, in the same place? This strategy could work both for both of the basic uses above.Sensory input. Problematically, it doesn’t seem to matter what senses the illusion affects. As long as sight is affected, it can occupy someone. Silent bees are just as distracting as buzzing ones. This means that the level 2 illusionist ability doesn’t gain anything as a combat use. Triggers. What prompts someone to investigate an illusion, in or out of combat? For players, an omission in the DM description may be enough, but what about NPCs? Noyhing the playrs do make it easier or harder to determine what happens next. Creativity is not rewarded. Sounds. Can NPCs get distracted by noise? Does the sound of a lion or call for retreat or the opening chord of A Hard Day’s Night or the sound of someone shouting “Sneak Attack” actually impact things in combat? I think it doesn’t. Or it requires interaction, in which case…?All of this just feels so sloppy. I don’t like casting these spells, because they require negotiation with the DM, and I don’t like it when players cast them when I DM for the same reason.Are these problems inevitable? Are there ways to make illusions work smoothly? Why would someone want to be an illusionist?Help. What do you do in your games to make illusions fun for all?</blockquote>

Verification