Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 7148274" data-attributes="member: 6877472">Oh man, my issues with Hidden Shrine, where to begin...*A lot of encounters are vastly underpowered- this is a conversion of a 1st Edition adventure, and it shows: the traps are super-deadly, but a lot of the actual fights are barely a speed bump for Tier 2 adventurers.  The only advice they give (and not even in the adventure itself, but in a "Hooks for the Hidden Shrine" article) is to "add one or two monsters".  Gee thanks. *The poison gas: the intent here is that players can't rest in the Shrine because of the d6 poison damage per hour.  Also, every square inch of the place until you get to Room 39 is full of the stuff, which also lightly obscures squares (disadvantage on sight-based Perception).  Which would theoretically make the traps much harder to find (and there have been a few DC 20 checks).  This wouldn't be so bad by itself, but...*Trapped in the Shrine: you can't get out.  No going to town for you.  Didn't buy potions or antitoxin?  Oh darn. *Cursed Items: this is an AL problem really.  In a home game, a cursed item is something you generally get screwed over with a few times, then a simple spell lets you drop it in a hole somewhere.  AL rules can lead to strange situations where a player chooses an item before they know it's cursed.  Now, it's permanently a part of their character, quite possibly preventing them from picking up new items, even if they never use it.  Worse, what if they go to someone else's table?  Do I give them a sealed note with "FOR THE DM" on it, to say "by the by, they have this cursed item...".  Or do I just tell them it's cursed before it triggers?  *Hazard Immunity: so the monsters in the Shrine are stated to be immune to a lot of it's hazards..."because".  There was some heat about this from my group.  It's one thing if you're in a poison filled room fighting a vampire, but when he summons 8 bat swarms, that raises questions.  *Room 1: not that any of these enemies are challenging, but they only appear if the party decides to pick up little figurines and set them on the floor.  My group just pocketed them all, lol.*Room 3: being knocked prone when you attack doesn't really mean much, it's your turn, you can just stand up again.  I didn't see much reason anyone would want to dash.  *Room 5: so you need 48 Strength to move a limestone block that deals 1 acid damage per turn you touch it, and it takes 10 rounds to move it.  My party was really close to saying "screw this", lol.  Also, science in D&D!*7: so many problems.  Opening the door with lockpicks bypasses the trap automatically.  DC 15.  Searching for the trap is DC 20.  Removing it is DC 20.  Messing up unleashes a ridiculous hazard.  Could the writer be a sadistic jerk who wants to punish you for having the nerve to search for traps?*Sleep Gas: What.  Just...what.  So ok, every round you have to make a DC 10 save.  Fine.  If you fail, you are poisoned, and fall asleep, ok, fine.  For 5000 years!  Which is admittedly hilarious, but the weirdness starts when the adventure says how you can be cured."If magic is used to cure the poisoned condition, the recipient is immune to the poison for one hour".  My reading of this was that poison cures suspend the effects of the sleep poison for one hour.  Several of my players immediately fired off "rules-argument.exe".  Their way of thinking was that removing the condition just works, and ALSO makes you immune for an hour as a side benefit.  My evidence to support my ruling was the next bit:*A casting of Dispel Magic USING A SPELL SLOT OF 7TH LEVEL OR HIGHER can also end the effect.  So many problems with this statement.  I mean, first of all, none of the party members should have access to such a spell.  This hearkens back to old D&D, where many "magical effects" in dungeons were randomly cast at super high level, to prevent players from doing anything about it.  So poison removal grants "immunity for 1 hour", Dispel Magic "ends the effect".  It's also conceivable that the Dispel is intended to get rid of all the sleep gas and anyone affected by it, but the text is very unclear.I ruled that poison removal or antitoxin suspends the effect for 1 hour, a normal casting of Dispel Magic ends the poison's effect for good (as it's semi-magical in nature).  I thought I was being a fair DM; my players accused me of trying to "screw them over".  LOL.*The Glyph of Warding: by the rules, can be triggered by, heh, reading it.  Which you kind of need to do, and really, how does detect such a trap?  More of a problem with the spell...oh and what a spell.  Save DC 17- by the rules, this Glyph was cast by a very high level caster.  And even then, it cheats, because it hits every person in the tomb with Bestow Curse.  And then...the adventure has the nerve to not say what effect the curse has other than a vague "every cursed violator receives a visit from Tloques or some other agent of Zotzilaha seeking retribution" 4d10 days later.  Unless THAT'S the curse?  *The Battleaxe.  No name.  Powerful.  Cursed.  Unique rarity.  Neat for a home game, trouble in AL.  Also, why is there an option to "break" it's most interesting power?  One of my Rogues removed the scroll thinking it was a map, message, clue, or just a spell scroll.  Which is a reasonable interpretation...oops, he broke it.  Which is sad because the Passwall might have gotten them out of the Shrine...*Room 8: oh no, don't touch the walls, you'll take acid damage!  Except...nobody has any reason to touch the walls?  Ooh, fake green slime!  Someone might have to waste a spell on...oh yeah, this is an edition with at-will magic attacks.*Room 9: this one was hilarious.  After making the check to realize that climbing up the statue would make it tip over, my Rogue asks "so how do we get the sword?".  My reply "Well, that's just the easiest way to climb up.  Nothing stops you from climbing the wall the regular way".  Legacy of an edition where only Thieves could Climb anything, and with a set percentage to succeed based on your level.Also, unique sword.  Another AL gripe: so there's a lot of weird items in this book that aren't in the DMG.  Some they bothered to put in the back of the book and give them a rarity.  Others they didn't, so "since it has no stated rarity, you can't trade it".  C- for effort.*Room 11: more slippery surfaces that don't really matter.  A solo enemy who goes on at length about how badass he is, then pleas  for mercy.  LOL.  Then...a swarm of rats.  Except it's a swarm of giant rats...who are diseased (yeah this was mentioned by the OP, but it bears repeating.  What were they thinking when they wrote this?).*Room 13: my group already had a brush with the badly written underwater combat rules at the end of Forge of Fury, during the Nightscale battle.  It didn't go well, and they're still salty about it.  Now a fight with another enemy who doesn't bother to come out of the water...and she's invisible!  If looks could kill, I wouldn't be writing this now.*Room 18: a random stretch of hallway full of 15 zombies.  15?!  I mean, this is technically a proper challenge for the party, but...15 zombies?  Except...these are no ordinary zombies!  They're all carrying sewer plague!  Yet another thing that spells are needed to clear.  In a dungeon where you can't rest...oh did I mention that the super virulent plague manifests in one hour instead of 1d4 days?*Room 20: a.  single.  wight.  Come on, that's not an encounter at this point.  Also, now I can gripe about the Amulet of Protection.  So there's a few of these in the adventure, which basically say "nope, Turn Undead don't work on this guy".  Again, this is a legacy of the olden days, when you had to have a Cleric, and the only real anti-undead power anyone had was Turning.  Now of course, you don't need a Cleric, and they have more interesting things to do with Channel Divinity, so the only time they might try to Turn is when facing a room of undead...like, say, 15 zombies.  Not for a lowly Wight.  And then it's presented as a magic item you could pick.  For...reasons. I mean, I guess a budding Necromancer might want it.  There's rumors that it could come in handy next season in AL...I don't know.  I mean, if you could sell magic items...haha.*Room 22: actually, these guys aren't a bad encounter, though for my group, I needed to add two more monks.  This could be a social encounter, but there's no real motivations for these guys.  This is a recurring problem for the adventure- it's obvious there's some really awesome backstory for the place, but it's never made evident to the players.  Another recurring problem- NPC's in the adventure who don't know useful information about the adventure.  A third recurring problem (for Yawning Portal in general)- NPC's who demand magic items.  Of specific rarity!  "Ok, ok, let's talk.  Can I offer you this +1 sword we found?"  "No, item is unique, and therefore cannot be traded to Fai Chen."  "Uh...how about my Shard of the Ise rune?"  "Ha!  That's very rare!  Powerful Giant item!  No thanks."*Room 24: so this is a classic trap.  The walls close in.  The room fills with sand.  There's even a Will-o'-Wisp here to play the part of the Trash Compactor Monster from Star Wars!  Just one problem.  The time factor.  5 rounds before the trap starts up.  1 minute to give any penalties.  2 more to start trapping you in sand.  2 more makes it worse!  5 more before you die!Now, since the game has six second combat rounds, what this means is, the party has (including the first 5 rounds before the trap starts) 104 rounds to get past the doors.  Even the "bash it open for 100 damage" is more than doable in that time.  An 8 Strength Wizard with a dagger has a +2 to hit and deals 1.5 damage per turn...no wait, would he have a staff for 2.5 damage per turn...no wait, this edition lets you use Dexterity with daggers...so um, 14 Dex means +5 to hit for 4.5 damage per turn, so if half his attacks hit the AC 15 wall...45 combat rounds to break down the wall.  Not accounting for the fact he probably scored two critical hits in that time.My friend is also running this adventure, and his group has, because we switched around players after Forge of Fury, TWO Barbarians wielding Shatterspike.  So yeah, this trap needs to be massively speeded up to be a real threat.*Room 25: a +1 dagger of unique rarity that breaks if you roll a 1!  Wow, such amazing treasure!*Room 28: a.  single.  gas spore.  Well, the purpose of the spore is obvious, make silly players go "oh <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />, a BEHOLDER!  Kill it, kill it!".  Then it explodes, some damage is dealt, everyone laughs.  I could add more spores, but since it's intended to represent the sun (which last I checked, we only have one of), doesn't make much sense.  So this isn't properly an encounter at all, and the xp is negligible.  I mean, I guess I could have the explosion alert nearby monsters and add a random encounter.  Yeah, let's do that.*Room 29: this is a massively cool encounter.  I haven't run it yet, but I'm betting my party will just attack and destroy the ball.  No treasure for you!  Also, cursed treasure, very Pirates of the Caribbean!  Of course, it's twice as powerful as Bestow Curse and has no listed ability for it's saving throw, oh well, I'll just refer to Bestow Curse...oh.  According to the "Hooks" article, it's Charisma.  Sure, why not.*Room 30: an AL problem.  Lycanthropy!  Better get it cured or you can't play your character in AL!  There's an awful lot of "cure this, or else" in this adventure.*Room 32: opening a door unleashes a trap!  It's 5 heavy crossbows, rigged to open fire...wait.  Should the makers of the Shrine have crossbow technology?  Earlier we found a "sword" made out of laminated wood and obsidian...in fact, how long has the Shrine been sealed?  Who's been repairing these things, should they even work at all?  It's a minor nitpick, but it just raises too many questions.*Room 35: are there rules for fixing a broken magic weapon?  This is about as far as my notes go, and that's probably enough.  The main problem with this dungeon is it's a relic out of time, from a day when you were expected to lose characters, and you were meant to slowly crawl through dungeons, poking at everything with 10' poles and fleeing from anything remotely dangerous.  It was also a tournament mod, where it was meant to be a challenge to complete.The pacing has serious issues, since the adventure prevents resting, imposes nasty conditions upon you, and generally gives players the mindset of "oh man, we have to hurry up and get out of here"...in a dungeon where rushing into things will kill you.  Dead, dead, dead.My group is mostly of people who have played 5e adventures, but have little experience with "old school" play.  They think every fight is winnable, most conditions are a slap on the wrist, and most challenges are fair.  They run around like they're on fire (in fact, when they ARE on fire, they never bother to put it out- that's the Cleric's job!) until they fall down, at which point they cry for healing.True story from last session-(Cleric): Hey, what's everyone's hit points at?(Fighter): Uh, hold on, let me do math.  3.(Cleric): THREE?!(Fighter): Yeah, I wasn't paying attention.  It's ok, if I drop, you'll heal me and I can keep fighting.(Cleric): (Speechless).(DM): Shouldn't you have used Second Wind last turn?(Fighter): Oh that's only for if the Cleric drops.  I'm not a noob.(Cleric): (Unable to properly speak, just makes strangled sounds of fury).(DM): I'm starting to wonder if I need to scale up the encounters.  You guys do all my work for me!</blockquote>

Verification