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Proficiencies don't make the class. Do they?
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6606335" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>I didn't say that anyone's saying that, so that's not an issue.</p><p></p><p>What is an issue is that no one's proposing anything about what those unique class features should be(@Minigiant has a few ideas). </p><p></p><p>Instead, I'm hearing that artificers can't be wizards because they wear armor and use better weapons and have a different spell list and use different skills. That they should be clerics or bards instead - because those classes wear armor and use better weapons and have a more buff-focused spell list and rely more on skills. Or that they should be their own class with armor and weapons and a buff-focused spell list and more skills.</p><p></p><p>I'm saying that's a weak argument, because proficiencies and spell lists aren't enough.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Favored Enemy</strong> gives the ranger a mechanical role-playing hook that then comes up in interaction with the chosen enemy.</p><p></p><p><strong>Natural Explorer</strong> is the major one - it gives the ranger the ability to move through difficult terrain without getting lost and while supplying the party with food and drink. It also allows them to enhance their stealth, as long as they scout without the rest of the party.</p><p></p><p><strong>Primeval Awareness</strong> is more niche, but supports the same idea - it enhances the ranger's scouting ability more, allowing them to see what's nearby. </p><p></p><p>If you just lifted the Beastmaster or the Hunter out of ranger and stuck them in fighter, you'd lose those elements. </p><p></p><p>If you're a Scout-Fighter, you don't have those abilities, relying instead on "It's up to DM interpretation" Survival checks. So the actual ranger is significantly better at getting along in the wilderness, ambushing enemies, and scouting for trouble, without relying on skills or specific spells or weapon or armor proficiencies.</p><p></p><p>(Part of the reason I think the ranger looks weak at a lot of tables is because these abilities are less likely to come up during play as relevant than things like second wind and action surge - lots of tables treat the wilderness as the thing to pass through, not as an area that is a challenge all its own, and 5e doesn't really make you consider it the latter)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6606335, member: 2067"] I didn't say that anyone's saying that, so that's not an issue. What is an issue is that no one's proposing anything about what those unique class features should be(@Minigiant has a few ideas). Instead, I'm hearing that artificers can't be wizards because they wear armor and use better weapons and have a different spell list and use different skills. That they should be clerics or bards instead - because those classes wear armor and use better weapons and have a more buff-focused spell list and rely more on skills. Or that they should be their own class with armor and weapons and a buff-focused spell list and more skills. I'm saying that's a weak argument, because proficiencies and spell lists aren't enough. [B]Favored Enemy[/B] gives the ranger a mechanical role-playing hook that then comes up in interaction with the chosen enemy. [B]Natural Explorer[/B] is the major one - it gives the ranger the ability to move through difficult terrain without getting lost and while supplying the party with food and drink. It also allows them to enhance their stealth, as long as they scout without the rest of the party. [B]Primeval Awareness[/B] is more niche, but supports the same idea - it enhances the ranger's scouting ability more, allowing them to see what's nearby. If you just lifted the Beastmaster or the Hunter out of ranger and stuck them in fighter, you'd lose those elements. If you're a Scout-Fighter, you don't have those abilities, relying instead on "It's up to DM interpretation" Survival checks. So the actual ranger is significantly better at getting along in the wilderness, ambushing enemies, and scouting for trouble, without relying on skills or specific spells or weapon or armor proficiencies. (Part of the reason I think the ranger looks weak at a lot of tables is because these abilities are less likely to come up during play as relevant than things like second wind and action surge - lots of tables treat the wilderness as the thing to pass through, not as an area that is a challenge all its own, and 5e doesn't really make you consider it the latter) [/QUOTE]
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Proficiencies don't make the class. Do they?
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