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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 6610447" data-attributes="member: 6790260">That's fair--just noting how it seems so funny that detractors (which, from what I gather, wouldn't include you) complained about how "samey" 4e classes seemed, and didn't feel they NEEDED to give 4e a chance beyond reading it, while you are not the only person I've heard directly tell me "you have to give 5e a chance in play, it plays better than it reads." That 4e often did not get such a chance, whereas people seem immediately willing to give 5e such a chance *and* expect others to do the same, annoys me greatly.Humorously, in reading through the comments in the thread itself, I actually think a lot of people voted differently than their expressed perspectives. That is, SEVERAL people have noted that at levels 1-5 (very roughly) there is essentially no difference between the two, except in their prime stat. They seem to take that prime-stat difference as important enough to be "not merely cosmetic," but for me it totally is. Everyone has a prime stat, so the fact that it's different between the two classes is not, to me, sufficient to say they're particularly distinct.That's...really strange, because the comparison between Warlock and Wizard in other threads is almost always "Wizards are the ones consistently flinging spells." Perhaps I am misunderstanding, or conflating two different meanings of "consistently" here, but it's difficult for me to accept "Wizards aren't using spells very much" here when it's been so thoroughly discussed as the *opposite* of that in the Warlock threads I've participated in.I also don't (really) see "I can cast 3-4 more spells per day" as a strong distinction between classes. I mean, for Warlocks it's significant because "3-4 less" means "often no spells for at least one encounter a day," but for both the Wizard and the Sorcerer, they've got plenty of spell slots for casting 1-2 spells in every combat, so going from an average of 1.5 to an average of 1.8 (or whatever) really doesn't seem like the kind of distinction you're describing.Yeah, this sounds like a highly academic difference to me. I mean, yes, it is a difference of what is available to the player when, but "I can cast an extra Fireball right away" vs. "I can cast an extra Fireball next fight" is...not something that makes the classes actually seem different to me. Particularly since there's still a hard limit on how many Fireballs one can fling in a day.Perhaps it also helps that I utterly loathe the "a short rest is one full hour" concept, so the difference between "right now" and "next fight" is not as big in my mind as it might be in..."baseline" 5e.Ironically, in other discussons I've heard about this, the concept was exactly reversed: that is, it did not make sense that someone who instinctively casts magic would be able to make the precision tweaks and modifications, but should rather have one intuitively-grasped, tried-and-true way of doing things which would be difficult to modify because it is "instinctual." The Wizard, on the other hand, knows all the variables and has spent countless hours perfecting the formulae, so she has the ability to modify parameters in a controlled, consistent, logical fashion, within the mathematical limitations of the formulae themselves.I'm not sure I necessarily buy either argument per se, but the "intellectual understanding gives precision control" argument is the more convincing if I *had* to pick one.Yeah...again this "swiss army knife" thing comes across as a pretty wan distinction. Rituals I can grant as something important--an entire sphere of mechanical effect that is, by and large, denied to the Sorcerer--but "I'm a caster with ALL THE SPELLS" vs. "I'm a caster with JUST THE BEST SPELLS" wasn't enough of a difference in 3e, and it doesn't come across as a difference in 5e either.So it basically boils down to "Sorcerers have spell points, Wizards have rituals." What's to prevent there being a Sorcerer who can learn rituals (perhaps in a way analogous to that one Tome Warlock invocation?), or a Wizard "school of metamagic" that gives spell points? And what would that do to the difference between the classes?</blockquote>

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