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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Remathilis" data-source="post: 6622815" data-attributes="member: 7635">Mechanically, so was the 3.5 bard; they even had a weird "always verbal" restriction which didn't allow you to use silent spell with them. (<a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm" target="_blank">Seriously</a>)I'm not going to deny most of the infusions were spells with a few odd restrictions. I'm denying that since infusion : spell :: artificer : wizard. Again, I point to the 3.5 bard. Partial spellcaster? Check. Unique spell list drawing off several other classes? Check. Mechanically, there is little separating the 3.5 bard from the 3.5 artificer, as far as casting goes. Which means your exact argument could easily turn the bard to a wizard subclass: a collection of song magic unique to wizbards a few weapon/skill proficiencies upon entering the subclass, and inspiration/countersong/song of healing/jack of all trades as subclass abilities. But such a character would not have satisfied people who played bards in 2e, 3e, or even 4e; Its just giving the wizard the bard's toys to play with. People would expect the wizard to still fill the wizardly role; teleporting, fireballing, etc. It wouldn't have the same feel. (KM has actually said that giving clerics the "druid" domain or fighters the "ranger" subtype wouldn't have the same feel of the actual class. I say the same is true of artificers, yet we're still trying to cram him onto the wizard). The main issue I have here is that there is this notion that the PHB classes are the only classes they are going to produce and everything else HAS to be a sublcass. It might works for some of those hybrid classes of 3e and 4e, but I think a few classes (artificer for one, psion for another) are so different that they cannot be replicated using the existing classes; they are either going to have to be new classes OR be discarded and let another class (wizard, sorcerer) fill that role. We can't have it both ways; subclasses are not versatile enough to fill these roles and make them different from their parent classes.</blockquote>

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